This episode of She's Wild features retired commercial real estate developer and broker, Nancy Phaneuf Manning. With over 35 years of experience, Nancy has thrived in good times and bad, assisting clients with commercial real estate services including leases, sales, investments, and ground up development. Join us as Nancy shares her favorite deals and how she became a developer in the '90s. Plus, hear about her notable career achievements including founding CREW Tampa Bay and changing the application process for new members into SIOR. This episode is packed with valuable advice and insights from a true industry expert.
Welcome back to She's Wild, today's guest is Nancy Phaneuf Manning. Nancy is a retired as a commercial real estate developer and broker and served as been president of Nancy Phaneuf Commercial Realty & Development from 1996-2021. NPR thrived in good times and outlasted tougher times in the real estate market. Nancy had over 35 years’ experience in exclusively commercial real estate services, providing her clients with assistance on leases, building & land sales, real estate investments, as well as ground up development. Nancy is a graduate, with distinction, from Cornell University, and earned her industry’s most prestigious designations, Certified Commercial Investment Member (CCIM) and Society of Industrial and Office Realtors (SIOR), for her professionalism and commitment to excellence.
Three notable career achievements: Founding CREW Tampa Bay in 1997 and providing a platform for many women to launch their own companies/expand their careers, raising two amazing daughters, now adults, and changing the application process for new members into SIOR.
In today's show Nancy and I discuss her favorite deals and she shares how she became a commercial real estate developer in the '90s. She's one of my favorite people and this episode is chock full of great advice.
Connect with Nancy:
Instagram:https://instagram.com/nancysurak
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancysurak/
Website: www.nancysurak.com
Connect with Nancy Phaneuf Manning:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancyphaneufmanning/
She’s Wild Sound Production by: Luke Surak, Surak Productions: surakproductions@gmail.com
Nancy Surak00:00
Hello, welcome back to She's Wild the podcast for women in land and development. Today's guest is a very dear friend of mine Nancy Phaneuf Manning. Nancy is a semi retired commercial real estate developer and broker who served as the president of Nancy Phaneuf Commercial Realty and Development from 1996 to 2021. Her firm thrived in good times and outlasted even tougher times in the real estate market here in the Tampa Bay region. She has over 35 years of experience exclusively in commercial real estate. And we're she provided clients with assistance on leases, building and land sales, real estate investments, as well as ground up development. Nancy is a graduate of Cornell University, and she earned our industry's most prestigious designations, including the CCIM and the SIOR for her professionalism and commitment to excellence. Nancy was the recipient of many many awards in her career, including being named a top regional industrial producer, having recognition as crews networking deal maker of the year, having been awarded Tampa Bay's industrial lease award of the year as part of her service to her profession and the Tampa Bay community. Nancy was a founding partner of Social Venture Partners Tampa Bay, and serve on the boards the Center, All Sports Community Service and Commercial Real Estate Women. In the last 36 months, she has not taken a semi retirement slowly and continues to do real estate deals, including being involved in sale of three industrial properties, two of which were multi tenant, and the development of charter school in South Hillsborough County. Nancy is also the minority partner in Big Bend Commerce Center, where she sourced the land, built the building brought the project to 100% occupancy and where she still has a small role and the future development of phase two. One of her most notable career achievements was founding CREW Tampa Bay back in 1997, which has provided a platform for so many women to launch not only their own companies, but to certainly have an avenue to expand their careers. Today, Nancy is the proud mom of two amazing adult daughters, and is recently married and finding her way to new territory has been semiretired. Nancy, thank you for joining. Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have you here. You can't wait till we get into all your background I've known you for I don't know, maybe 20 years now, I think. But for the benefit of the folks here today, I would love for you to give us a little bit of introduction of who you are, and a little bit of your history in commercial real estate.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 03:14
Well, Nancy, thank you for having me. It is it is a very high honor for me. As I mentioned earlier, I've never done anything quite like this. And as you also mentioned, we have known each other for over 20 years. And I met you through the kind of experience that I hope most real estate professionals get to have and that is to collaborate on projects that are successful. So that that is the easy thing to start saying. So my background actually in commercial real estate is how I've done just about everything in my life, which is kicking and screaming, I never thought I'd be here. I have a passion for cooking and for food and for travel. And that passion was met when I matriculated at Cornell and their hotel school. And I always thought that I would own a small boutique restaurant that was basically a bakery starting early in the morning. But closing when it was done when everything was sold out, let's say 1pm And soon realized that I was never going to be doing that. I got out of college and went to a well actually a consultant role in hospitality which actually wound up being hospitality real estate development. My very first business trip was to Augusta to see if there was room for an extra hotel. And I had never even heard of the Masters or Bobby Jones or the green jacket. But soon after that I met a fabulous co worker and he went into commercial real estate and when I moved to Florida, he would call me and say you would love this. And so without even knowing the difference between a developer and a broker, I still started cold calling all the brokerage firms and landed at what is now call yours. kindly taken under the wing by gentleman named Hal Kolbert, and started in their research department.
Nancy Surak05:15
That's amazing. So you started off in researchtake me through from the research to the brokerage to the development. And I know it's a long period of time, so maybe we'll start there.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 05:28
Okay, so the other really friendly person I met was Ed Miller, Ed Miller, still an amazing industrial real estate broker in Florida. And Ed would take me out on calls with him. And pretty soon I realized I can make a whole lot more money for the firm and myself if I became a broker. And because I was already familiar with some of the terms and the neighborhoods for industrial, I went in there. It wasn't that I said, Oh, I just cannot wait to slog through rail served, dock high, 32 clear buildings with this kind of sprinkler system. No, I just knew it. And it looked like it was pretty easy to pick up the details. And with Ed's tutelage, I found myself right, right in the fray with that, and I did that probably for four years at Colliers a couple of years in between. But the real launch to my career, the real launch, so I did brokerage under the Colliers umbrella for about six years, but I met up with the owner of some business parks that were foreclosed, it was actually traveler's insurance, they gave me a listing on two business parks. And through that, I met a gentleman who was a developer out of Orlando, Tony Bruno. And he came to, he came to tamp and he goes, Okay, I'd like to buy that and I go, these come as a package, you should really look at this other park, that's the sleeper. And, and when I met Tony, things really burst right wide open. Tony introduced me to the CEO and the Chairman of the Board of East group properties very early on in the due diligence of those business park, sales contracts. And he wants they wanted to know all about apartments, and I go, I don't know a thing about apartments. But here's what I'm doing with Tony. And they literally called Tony on the way to the airport and said, hey, whatever you're doing there we want in. And so sold those two parks to them sold five more parks to them over the next four years, all under the East group umbrella. And then when we were done, acquiring things, I was still doing some brokerage, and I said, I have this builder suit, maybe maybe you guys want to do this together. And Tony said you find the landlord do the building. And that's how I got introduced to development 1996. And none of my own money. And all of these groups money, no risk on my part, I was a broker doing that work for them. And we wound up doing 11 projects over a million square feet in about five years time. And many of those projects each group still owns and or the same tenants are still in those buildings. And then my dear friend, Tony retired. So I thought, well, heck, I know how to do this. Why don't I just go ahead and do build the suits for owner occupants, because every tenant I ever met, always wanted to own their own building. And the inventory was so small, but I knew how to buy land at this point. I knew I knew the pro forma on land, for building in industrial in my sleep. And so I went out and I found some people that said, I need a building. I built them a building another one another one, another one. I did that for about four years. And then I'm like, That is such a long process. Why don't I just do this on my own. And so Tony was going to buy some land with me. And this is a crazy story. But I bought a garage in Ybor City and I was going to clean it up and make it multi tenant doctors in the back glass storefront and the front. And I put a sign up advertising it and before I closed I had an offer that cashed me out and made me a six figure profit. So and I called Tony Hey, do you still want to do this land over in Lakeland? He's kind of not that enthusiastic. I said but you know what, I could do it if you don't want to do it. Or you say well, then you call me click on up. So I bought two lots out in Lakeland Parkway Corporate Center, built two buildings, flipped a lot to a friend of mine. And then I was doing this on my own with my own signature on the loan. That was a big risk and And thanks to Penny Parks, then Penny Holbert, I got a loan for two buildings at the same time, without any requirement to either one be leased or sold, which was a coup back in the day. And then it just went on from there.
Nancy Surak10:18
That's amazing. So I think if I remember correctly, I think one of our first interactions was some time around when you were doing the Lakeland deal. So it was a while ago?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 10:27
Oh, yes
Nancy Surak10:28
I sort of remember chatting with you early on about that. And now to see where your career has come and where all the things and projects that you touched in the region is, it is an honor, really, for me to have you here. Because I've always looked up to you, you know, we joke around you and I that we get each other's phone calls, I still get your phone calls and vice versa. Right? Right. Because there aren't very many nancies. And I think we're the only nancies on the west coast of Florida that do what we do. And so people call me Call me when they really want to talk to you. They call you when they really want to talk to me. So it's pretty ironic. But I've always looked up to you because you are such a strong and stable presence and such an amazing woman in the business. So I want to thank you for paving the way for people like me, so thank you for that.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 11:21
Well, I was remembering that we met each other when you were at Jamal and Associates. Nodarse, Nodarse. Yeah, that's right. I met you then. And we started doing deals there. We did deals together. But I do remember, when you were starting to think about getting into brokerage, we had a little sit down. Yep, on Davis Island Davis Island. I can see you in the chair. And I always had three pieces of advice, you know, a year in the bank, CCIM, get that going. And then just make sure if you have a partner that they're on board, because it's a little stressful,
Nancy Surak12:02
Which are always, all three of those are really good pieces of advice. You know, I get calls from folks who think they want to be a land broker, right? And I'm like, It's the longest sales cycle of all asset classes, are you sure? Right. Not only is it the longest, but it's also the one that you have the least control over. Because the winds change, there's changes in financial markets and your deal will fall apart through no fault of your own, like you can't even save it. And I think your advice of make sure you have money in the bank saved is what's kept me in the business for as long as I've been in the business, because I always say I live off of last year, the year before is rewards. And that's because when I have years where for whatever reason, and this happens, it's so cyclical in our in our world, where the year before might have been incredibly wonderful, with a lot of deals the next year, just that sometimes it might take four or five, six months to get a paycheck. Right? So you have to you know, you have to have that, you know, that stability with money in the bank, and then to exactly what you said, like a partner or somebody who can help you when times get tough because they're going to come. But you actually mentioned a little bit earlier, two things I want to chat about. Because it's always one of these has always stood out for me about you. You talked about cold calling.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 13:26
Yes.
Nancy Surak13:29
I admire you. And I know that that's always been top of your list. That's I think probably your fourth piece of advice, right? Don't be afraid to cold call. I want you to share your experience with the value of cold calling with the folks here today. Because I remember a little bit of what you believed right about the value of cold calling, but I'd love for you to reshare it.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 13:53
So when you Oh, let me think what year this might have been 1986 87 88 I mean, late 80s. There were not databases full of information on people, you could say their lease is up and I really ought to be able to pinpoint prospects for myself readily, readily. So what was left to you is either a call on the phone, but in industrial brokerage I always felt you could pinpoint a somebody who needed your help just by driving by not enough parking tractor trailers stacked up a lower clear building. road networks that were compromised age of the building, there's so many things you could see that you could never understand over a phone call. So walking in in person was always was always great. And it probably had a little bit of that in my prior life because I did do some sales before I got into commercial real estate But the whole idea of a cold call was represented possibility to me. And if I didn't have enough going on, I knew that I literally could go out and make 10 cold calls, which would take an afternoon, let's say, and I would come up with two possibilities. And then the next day, until I had enough work in my Hopper, that would keep me at work and focused on actually fulfilling an opportunity. And then to follow up, the cold calling was there had to be some kind of tracking system. And we didn't have Outlook. We didn't have CRM the way we have now. But there was a early early stage one called act. And I met up with act and I'm like, oh, yeah, this is the tool, several different databases, everything that came up in a tickler calendar. And if you just were true to that process, you could manage hundreds of leads very well for year by year or building size or who owned or who leased. And you could sort that database in such a great way. But the only way you got information in was to do those calls. So I had a huge database that helped me when I was listing a building, or I saw something and I'm like, who could use that? So it made the see the cycle of those things a lot faster for me.
Nancy Surak16:27
Right? Well, I also remember you went through some cold calling training, right? Was Saunders,
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 16:35
Sandlers, Sandler, Sandlers Sales training.
Nancy Surak16:38
It just stuck with me all these years Nancy. Would you believe that every time I start my week off or day off, and I'm like, Oh, I gotta do X many cold calls this week, I think of you every time. Wow.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 16:50
Out of everyone in the entire industry. I really have this like vivid memory of you saying cold call is how you're going too far past your your competition you have do it. Has that has that been true?
Nancy Surak17:07
When I'm when I'm religious about it, it always produces amazing results. Amazing. And it's true. Now cold calling for me is a little bit different. I can't exactly show up to a cattle gate. Because I might get shot. Getting in property or hopping the fence or whatever. So for me cold calling is really picking up the phone and trying to get somebody live on the telephone. And then the goal is to get a face to face when I'm religious about it. And I do it. And I do it. Well, like I I get really busy very quickly, because I can convert folks. But I have you to thank for that too.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 17:45
So crazy.
Nancy Surak17:46
Amazing. Okay, so when you think back of all the projects that you worked on, and all the things that you were involved with, when you drive through the region, or you go to lay your head on the pillow at night, is there a particular project that raises to the top of your list of something that you're super proud of that you were involved with?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 18:10
So there's two real deals, and then there's a sale. So the first deal that really, that that that was a coup was the premier beverage 220,000 square foot build a su one of the largest ever in the region. And we put that under contract and 98 they moved in and 99. But here's what makes it so crazy. You're gonna love this story. So I had a rental house, and my tenant was moving. And I didn't have a chance to get him his refund check. But he says, Hey, I work out in Brinegar. I'm out there all the time, I'll bring your check to you. Where is it? So I go into his place of business. And I'm in a very small vestibule. And you know, I'm here to see so and so. And the girl is very nice at the desk. And I say to her, so who's in charge around here? Well, that's this gentleman, and you have to make an appointment to see him. And I'm like, Okay, fine. So I deliver the check. And I call back for this gentleman. And I I have effectively a cold call. And I sit down and talk with him on a day where my second daughter but his only child had gone to kindergarten that day. So we had this huge cry fest over Oh, and growing up so fast and what a day and you see them with their little backpacks and lunch boxes. So he reveals that they are considering merging two locations, and this is what they would need. And I addressed help East group buy 20 acres across the street. And I knew that that was going to be too valuable for this bill to suit cost of the multi tenant rents that we could get there. So I'm like well Let me let me see what I can come up with. So I wind up picking, picking up some information and a couple of options. And one of them is down at what now is called Oak Creek. Yes. And so I have a meeting with not only this gentleman, but three or four of his C suite people down from New York. And they're very intrigued with this opportunity. And I have the land seller attend this meeting with me. So he had had his civil engineer do a mock up, how could we do this many square feet? Could we have expansion? How much parking how much trucking, all that so this gentleman is in the meeting with me. And for five meetings, five meetings, they thought he was a developer. Interesting, even though I'm there as a developer, that's what my card says his says something else. So after a number of these meetings, he finally said to these other gentlemen, you really need to be asking her these questions, because she's going to own the building someday. And it was kind of a like, you were just saying, there's some things that haven't changed a lot over time. But that put me on a very real footing. The backstory is that Tony Bruno, whose money I'd be using Tony and East Group's money to buy this land Tony's like, you know, you're going to spend $50,000, and you probably won't get this deal. So I was a little worried that I was spending too much time on a deal that wasn't going to gain any traction, except that it really started to gain some traction. And we started getting very close on this deal. And I still didn't have the land under contract. So Tony's like, you need that under contract. But I knew that land seller knew I was the only way to get that deal done. So when I'm doing that, and then I never took a laptop on vacation with me, but I did that summer. And I get a call from the corporate office that said, read my body language. We're really liking what you're putting together there. Now 23 years ago, there was nothing down at Oak Creek, but cows, cows, cows, cows. And they were very worried that that was not going to be central enough or too far for employees to drive. And I mean, now it's Maine, in Maine, it's in the heart of our industrial and really our brand and neighborhoods. So that one was that one was a great one. And I wound up not only brokering that, but I acted as a developer on that. Because I was here and Tony was over there. So I ran I ran that deal. Never having had experience doing that at all, at all. And we put that together in nine months. It was a Deal of the Year that year. So that was a that was a heady experience.
Nancy Surak23:02
That's amazing. Oh, God, I you know, I sold a piece over there. Gosh, I'm trying to remember what year it was maybe. I can't remember what year it was. It was right in the midst of all the bank stuff. It was on the east side of the road. All filled in now. It's completely all filled in.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 23:24
Oh, yes. Well, yeah. And not with the things that it was site plan for. It's been under several
Nancy Surak23:30
Yeah, because I think I sold a multifamily piece. There was a multifamily piece, like on the next corner across the street was more industrial. I think that was maybe I think you guys might have been a little bit south of where we were I was yes. But really interesting. That land deal was really interesting, because it was when I did it, the piece I sold, I think it was 20 acres. It was a bank REO piece. And I won't say who bought it but or who had the original loan that went bad. But I can say it was an interesting ethical dilemma for me, because I walked into a meeting with a buyer at an office that I was unfamiliar with the address, and I sat down and this gentleman walked in the room and I knew he was the defaulting party on the bank reo. And I was like, Oh my God, I don't know what to do with this situation. This was I think, 2010 or 2011. And I called my client, the bank and I said, Hey, this happened. I don't really know what his role is, but he was in the room and I want to let you know, like, I have to come forth and just disclose this because I know this. I don't I don't know if he's a buyer or if he was just there to listen, we didn't have that conversation. And the bank said, if his name is not on the LOI or on the contract, there's really nothing we can do. And I'm pretty sure he was partner. But it was very bizarre. The whole situation is very big. bar, but I think he, you know, gave it back to the bank. And then they bought it back for, you know, a percentage of whatever the original loan was so pretty interesting. But anyway, enough about me, it's a great area. And you're exactly right. It completely has filled in. And it's, it's sort of like the western boundary of Brandon now. So there's a lot of stuff over there. So when you, you talked a little bit about all these men who were so important in throughout your career. And that's great that you had all of that help and encouragement and support. But there was something you did in your career that I'm super grateful for, and super proud of you for that I think your legacy definitely lives on. And that was founding CREW here in Tampa. Tell me, I think it was back in 1997. Tell me a little bit of why you thought that that was something you needed to do.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 25:57
So like I said, Everything I did wasn't intentional. Really it wasn't. I worked for I worked for a company here. And one of the partners in Atlanta was a crew member of CREW Atlanta. So my boss said, You ought to talk to her about this organization. Never heard of it. So if you make a call, all of a sudden, the entire network knows about that. And they go, we hear you're thinking about starting a chapter. And I'm like, No, that is not what I'm doing. But in the course of exploring what what was his crew network, who was in it, what did they do? Why were they there? What would it be good for? I'm in the process of getting divorced. And I learned that 5% of the women who are getting divorced can afford to pay for their own legal counsel. And the way the law works is other the women who can't afford their spouse pays. But most people don't know that. So I was just sad that if someone didn't have the funds to proceed, that they would remain unhappy. And I thought, well, what can I do that would allow women to get in positions of being able to make some real money. And when I started looking around, and I'm like, this could be the vehicle. And it certainly has been. So the nature of our work of being a minority in many of the disciplines of commercial real estate, brokerage, development, engineering architecture, not as much in banking and law, although those are still very male dominated. But being able to put together a room full of professionals, each of whom have a hand in pulling together a deal. That has been tremendous for the community and personally very, very rewarding. I've done as many deals as I can possibly do with a crew member. I do. And if someone isn't a crew member, I like you're gonna have to work on that. No more deals for you. So that that crew is 26 years old this year, over 300 members, I've been re re entering that through something called the legacy memberships that Paul Buffett and I are spearheading so we are back in the fold in an advisory capacity, use our Rolodex, you know, all the contexts that we have some experiences, make introductions, here's what we can do, literally pick up the phone, when you call over to tell her Nancy from crew said, You should talk to her and she will take your call. And that happens. And we can circumvent a lot of time and red tape just by helping one another out. I didn't really have that when I started here. I didn't have that. And so I knew, you know, as 10 years after I'd been in real estate that we started crew and I knew just how valuable that could be because personally, nobody did that here. Nobody was doing that.
Nancy Surak29:15
Right? Yeah, no, it's pretty remarkable. And I tell people to when they come in, they find me through different mechanisms. If I like someone, right, and I feel like they are hard working and they're gonna Good, good people good stock. I say use my name. It's not that I'm they're gonna necessarily call you back right away, but it is meaningful in the industry, like people know who I am. And they're gonna call you back because I might use my name. And if you don't hear from them, let me know because I'll call them and find out exactly what's going on. And it really does work and it is still a very, very heavily oriented people business. So you have to like the people that you're doing business with, and it makes a difference who you're associated. With. Okay, so thank you for giving me a little bit more background on on crew. And I know when I first moved to Tampa in 2002, I had been in Research Triangle Park involved with their CREW. And when I came down, I got involved with the CREW down here in Tampa. So I just remember, you know, you always being in all the meetings and just being so gracious and warm and welcoming. So again, like I'm your biggest thing. So when you think back on your entire career, what's the biggest challenge that sticks out that you're like, Man, I really learned a lesson on that one, what was something that you dealt with? That really taught you? A very valuable lesson about the business?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 30:52
God, it's just, every every turn was a lesson Oh, my God. So let's think about that. Let's think, Well, I would, I would say if anybody said, Who's your who's your mentor be Tony Bruno. And the thing that I loved so much about Tony was Tony was always trying to find a way, let's let's do this, let's, if we have to give a little little bit of money, but we get that that will be worth it. So his demeanor, in putting deals together. And his approach of I want to do this, I want everybody to win, I want everybody to feel that they got a very good deal. But they also respected the other person on the other side of the table. That was newer. So that came to me in, you know, five years after I'd been in the business where everything was so antagonistic. You know, it was like landlords were trying to put it to their tenants, or some developers were not wanting to pay brokers, or some people were trying to cut you out for whatever, Tony was never that way, someone would show up, let's pay them, someone came and did something for us get an invoice, you had a negotiation going, he never raised his voice, he was always lovely. And I learned that you can be lovely in what had been a little bit of an antagonistic environment. And I think that would be the biggest lesson in how you want to do business that really has always stuck with me.
Nancy Surak32:31
That's a great story there, because I wasn't expecting that. But you're right. And, you know, one of the things that I probably can work on is allowing those things to sort of settle, because I tend to get like, really like betting and I want to control it sometimes. So just although I do like to treat everyone fair, fairly in a deal, and be very upfront with whatever the circumstances are. But I think, you know, folks can really remember that sometimes things will all settle in on their own account, and to just take care of everybody in the business.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 33:08
One more thing I want to add, you mentioned the Sandler Sales Training. So one of the best things about life in general, but particularly in commercial real estate deals is the qualification of who you're dealing with. And you have to be conversant in the things that will bring you to know, do you have the money? Is everyone in the room that needs to be part of the decision? Is this the right time? And then if you answer all those questions, do you have to say, am I the right person? Is there a deal? And is there a deal for me. And so when when you start looking at your list of transactions or possible transactions, you really have to say that that is a real deal, or that's never going anywhere. And that was probably a cornerstone of my work ethic about how I would decide what I would work on, and how much of my time they would get before they would be considered a real deal. And a real deal to me was we close and I made some money at some point. Because I would always also tell you that I am in this for the money. I love you. But I'm really in this for the money and I actually am feeding a family here. So I'm not doing this for fun or because you're really great. I'm doing this because there's a mutual benefit in us working together. So I wanted to add that I think the Sandler Sales Training made me a ninja in qualifying people.
Nancy Surak34:43
I absolutely love that. I think I learned my qualification skills the best when I worked for the banks. So between 2010 and 2012 really asking those hard hitting questions like where's your money? How much money do you have? Where is it? Who are your financial partners, to be able to just sift through groups that really didn't have any financial viability? And then I in the more recent years, I've found, you know, some of those questions are slightly different. You know, it's not necessarily where's your money? It's who your financial partners, where's your debt and equity coming from? Who's Who's funding this project? Because if it in there such simple questions, but when somebody stumbles on that, man, I'm like, the antennas go off and I'm like, I don't have any money. And then that's really a providing service I can provide to my clients, right, my sellers to be like, this group doesn't have any money. This is how I know that they don't have any money. And you know, so I love that I love the qualifying questions. I love knowing, you know, just the experience, like who you can trust in the business, who you can't trust. And that I think, has saved me a lot of times, you talked about getting to know quickly. And I joke around with a lot of people and I said, if there's going to be a no in a deal, I want to get to it as fast as possible.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 36:09
Absolutely. Because no one has time. Because I don't do things,
Nancy Surak36:12
right, I don't do this to not get paid. And if I'm not going to get paid, I want to be at the pool or on the beach with a big fat drink in my hand not getting paid, I don't want to be working on a deal for six months a year, 18 months, 36 months, whatever, and not get paid at the end, like nothing's worse, right.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 36:35
So I mitigated that also part of the Sandler Training. So I told you, I got into development. So you have to find the land. And then by the time everything gets through the mill, and they close on the land, then they start the development, it's 10 months, or it's a year. So I was sitting there going, I really can't wait a year for all these deals to gel. So I started asking for retainer, love that, and I got it often back in the day. So I wouldn't work for anybody unless they paid the retainer also, and that that would sift out some people very quickly. I don't care how much you make it, you can make it 1000. Mine was 10,000. But if they if they were bought talking at paying this, which I would actually net it out against my land commission, it wasn't they were paying extra, they were just committing emotionally and morally committing to going through this process. And when they had money on the line, you know, if they were serious or not another way to get to know very quickly. And when people would start packing your things up going well, I never thought that was coming. Okay, but you're not, I'm not going to be able to work for a year for free. And so I had a whole, I had a whole procedure that we went through, but I got retainers a lot. And that was instrumental and keeping me in the development business.
Nancy Surak38:05
You know, I absolutely love that. Actually remember that you told me that story, I don't know forever ago as well. And I don't charge a retainer. And I think it's really a shame that I don't write I have on certain projects. But as a general rule, for the most part, I don't. But a couple of years ago, post COVID When things were getting really hot again, in our region, and all these developers were in this capital sources were just flooding into our marketplace, because it was like unbelievable at the end of 20 and 21. I just had so much demand on my time of meeting with different groups that were coming in. And they were like, hey, we want to pick your brain on the market. And we want to do this. And I got to the point where I was like, here's the deal. I have so much demand on my time. I'll give you 30 minutes. And I'll give you an overview of the market. If you want more than that you have to pay me. You have to pay me for my time. Yes. And it was really remarkable the responses that I got, like people were like, wait, what? What, like some people were like, oh, well, you know, we'll we'll do 30 minutes. And the minute that 30 I would set my timer on my phone and I'd be like, okay, well, we're done here. And for the most part, people would be very respectful of that time window, right. But what I learned was, if they're meeting with me, and they're meeting with four or five other brokers in the market, we're educating them over the course of a day or two, instead of educating each other, right? We're educating these folks coming in from outside of the market and they know more than we know. And we're here. Oh, man, but it helps me right. It helps me just kind of sift through like folks who I was never going to do business with. Right? Because they just they didn't value what I had to bring. So maybe the lesson I'm going to take forward me Nancy is figuring out a way to start charging a retainer, because I don't know of any other professional service outside of brokers brokerage that will work for free until the end of a deal.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 40:07
And it can be yours. It's crazy.
Nancy Surak40:11
What was the longest deal that you worked on? How long did it take? Do you remember?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 40:21
Okay, so my second favorite deal is this deal. So I also want to add that I am I am retired. But I retired in COVID. And I retired after I finished my my obligation on this particular deal. So, also to say that I met, I met my client through referral. And their furl came from a banker while I was playing golf with a CREW member. Oh, okay. Group well, for referral, several deals. This gentleman, this gentleman introduces me to the chief education officer of a charter school and says she wants another campus, will you help us find the land? Yes. So from that moment, to the time they moved into the building was probably three and a half years. That is a long time for what's not a broker. It's a brokerage deal development deal, but it's not an industrial deal. Industrial doesn't usually take that long. But this is a charter school. And by the time we figured out who was the development team, they had another developer in mind. And I sat in on these meetings, and there was a presentation and I said, I'm going to put a team together if that's okay, I'd like to present as a developer for this project, when I was first just going to be land broker. So I put a team together. And I've never built a charter school, but I sure know how to buy land. And on the team was a charter school architect, a contractor that had built many charter schools, a construction manager that I'd worked with before. And so the four of us, that was our team, and we make our presentation, and we don't get picked. And I said to my dear friend, I go, Hey, I'm not. I'm not mad about losing. But I can't find anything about this other group. I can't find them on Sunday, because I can't find them in the state of Georgia. I don't see any deals, they've developed. Some of the things they've told you, I can't back up, i can't i Fact checked a few things. So do me a favor, do your own deep dive and see what you come up with. So a week later, they call us up and go, Hey, what was that again. So we get appointed to be the development team. And we go and do a pre submittal meeting with the county. And we get in writing that this use is an approved use in this business park. And everybody signs off on it. So with that, put the land or new contract, we start the architectural and civil drawings, and, well, the architectural and some site planning drawings, but no civil drawings completed yet. And we finally hire a civil for real, and we get another pre submittal meeting and they say, Oh, you're not allowed in this zoning is about we have this in writing and we have spent $300,000 already. So through some creative, creative things, we do get the zoning correctly, we close on the land. Now I left out of step, no money, they had no money. They had a bond issue they were working on. So we close the land, not with the bond company, we close with a private investment group. And we start construction with the understanding that that interim lender also has to fund you know, the first two drawers which are $500,000 draws, each big draws in the beginning. Fast forward. We finally get close on the land. In the ground in November, under construction under construction under construction, the bond closes a month before the CEO and the month before they occupy so we were doing this on interim financing. $12 million. Really without funding.
Nancy Surak44:34
That's remarkable. Oh my gosh,
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 44:38
That is my favorite deal. Because the client was unbelievable. My team. I've never worked on a team that was as good as that even as good as all my East group things were. Everybody was their own company. The architect, the contractor, the construction manager myself all entrepreneurs that had the ability to say, okay, I can move my feet to that for now, but I need to get paid here and there. And the client was like, Okay, that's fair, we'll make that happen. The contractor made that deal happen. He, he manipulated and maneuvered and paid subs in a way that kept them on the job, but also kept the deal moving, even though the financing was always a little dicey.
Nancy Surak45:30
I love that. Okay, so this is the point of the conversation where I usually go into rapid questions, where I ask you some questions to wrap us up for the day. And, you know, leave some words of wisdom for the folks that are here with us. So the first question I love to ask is, if a young woman called you and asked for advice of either getting started in commercial real estate, as a broker or more as a developer, what would be your best advice for that person.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 46:06
So the number one thing that I have, you know, aside from have some money in the bank and things like that, and I'm assuming that they're they're tracking they're going to start a job somewhere, is you have to have some of the background in the industry that isn't provided in a brokerage house, and I'm talking the CCIM. commercial investment member, you have to know how to use a 12C or 10B in your head, like the back of your hand, I have an app on my phone, so that I can be doing financial analysis all the time. So I would encourage somebody to whatever it took, get started in that start building your network of like minded people that are also addressing the same kind of questions that you're addressing, in development or brokerage. So now you have a built in resource of other people. And listen, if you're in sales, and you never have been in sales, that Sandler Training is unparalleled, unparalleled. And I was fortunate enough to be in Mark Fitzgerald's corner for about 10 years, 10 years. And the training repeats. It's random what the topic is for the day. But over the course of the year, you might see, let's say the qualifying thing, you might see that four times, it's once a week for two hours. salespeople don't spend two hours out at training once a week. But I'm telling you like, you can go faster, another way, but you'll go a lot further this way. So those two things, I'm always about education. And I do like I do like people earning certifications. I think it's a distinguishing factor in a marketplace that doesn't really admire additional education. You don't need it for accolades. You need it for your own ability to transact. And I think those two things are critical.
Nancy Surak48:06
No, that's, that's awesome. And you know, it's funny, because every year when I have to pay my CCIM dues, I always think this is worth it. It's so expensive. And just like two weeks ago, I had a woman who I've been prospecting a woman landowner, and I sent her the link to my website. And I'm like, hey, you know, here's a little bit more about me that my company doesn't cover. But if you really want to learn who I am, and my experience in the business, go, go view my website. And when I talked to her after sending her the link, she said, Oh, my God, you are a CCIM.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 48:40
No way.
Nancy Surak48:41
And I was like, what? And she said, and I said, Oh yes, I am. I earn that back in 2010. And I've had it for 13 years. And she said, that is really remarkable. That is such a hard program. And I said, well tell me how do you know about the CCM, you're gonna love this. And she said, I know a woman who has it in another market. And I remember how challenging it was for her to earn it. And I thought well, and so you know, next time I have to do my you know, check or credit card, I won't feel as bad. Like it's gonna come back. And it is something I don't as a land person. Like, I don't really go into those financial models a lot. But I can, you know, I can I know how to do it. I certainly know how to build a performer. And so it's a lot of the same financial just knowledge, right, but I know how to look at cash flowing assets, even though I don't sell them. I know how to analyze them.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 49:39
Yes, I mean, I had a developer make me an offer on a piece of land I had listed and it was about two thirds what I thought it was worth. And he of course he's plugging in a different rent. Oh, well, that would make it but if you know what their end game is going to be and you know what the revenues are, you can back in to what the land is worth, of course, and that is a whole deal anyway, the whole deal is the land my way my world, it was always the land. So that's why when I went through that 11 projects with Tony, I felt like I really knew how to buy some land. I knew how to buy land, which meant I knew how to sell land.
Nancy Surak50:20
Yes, yes. Okay, so the next question I love to ask is, is there a book, or a podcast or something that you've consumed content wise, that you think is worthy of sharing with the folks that are here today that we should look into?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 50:36
Well, I'm actually starting a book club for CREW right now. And I got hooked into that, because I asked the President what she was reading, because you can't you can't cover all the ground yourself. And, and I have read a lot, so good to great was the book I was introduced to, you know, 20 years ago, the book, that's the book that's getting some currency right now as a book called Originals by Adam Grant. And that is going to be our first book and the book club. And it talks. It talks a lot about who who are the trendsetters? And how did they get there? And how do they make decisions? And what obstacles did they come up against? Male and female, and it has, it has a lot to do just with being in business, and particularly female in business. So I tend to read those kinds of books and listen to that. I really, I really feel strongly about that. I, you know, I really think I would love to be doing listening more on podcasts like yours. I just when I'm not driving anymore, I don't do it. I don't do it. So I haven't really been driving for about two and a half years in my car. And that was when I was listening to most things.
Nancy Surak51:57
Well, I know I listen to my podcasts in the morning, because I take my dog on a walk. And that's when I consume that or if I'm on a long car trip, right? Because if it's a short car trip, I'm probably on a call. But if it's something Yes, two hours or so then I have the ability to consume some some podcasts. And there's some good ones. But I always like a good new book, because I do listen to a lot of books on audio as well. So I did see that crew was starting their book club here in Tampa. And it reminded me and you probably remember this of when I was first getting into brokerage, I had an event and an office that it was working with and we we talked about Robert Kiyosaki's book. Do you remember that? The purple book?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 52:42
Rich Dad Poor Dad
Nancy Surak52:43
Yeah. And I was like, oh, I want to do like this like Investing Club and it never went anywhere. But I had great women that came and we talked about it. I don't know if anything else came out of the room or what what happened. But I remember just sitting down and being like, we should do this. Like we have all this expertise. And we should be doing our own deals and doing them together. And I don't know. I think you probably did some of that though. Anyway. Yeah. Finally, Nancy, the last question I have is I even though you're semi retired or retired, however you want to define it? Where can people keep up with you? Are you active anymore on social media? Or you really just like, hey, keep up with me through crew come and visit with me. I go to meetings, what? How can we connect with you?
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 53:29
Well, I'm on LinkedIn, my my profile still up there. I, I have shed my out of the home office, you're talking to me in my home office now. And I had an office out of my house for 26 years. So this is this is home base. I don't put out any more social media posts. What I am doing is a lot of referrals. But I am available Anyone, anyone that wants to talk to me, or I always say lunch or nine holes of golf gets my attention. I'm happy to talk to people of all ages, and at any point in their careers, or just to have some fun.
Nancy Surak54:12
I love it. Well, I want to thank you again. Like I've said throughout the entire interview, you've been definitely a beacon for me in my career. I want to thank you for the example that you've set. I've just been, you know, very grounded and really professional female in the business and somebody that I could personally I look up to. I hope that as I progress in the rest of my career that you can turn around and say you've made me proud. So
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 54:39
You already have listen, you you had 10 years in a shop. Well known shop did very well there. And then you made a leap that I was like wow, that that's strong. That was a strong move. There is you've done it. I wouldn't say single handily, but nearly single handedly, and that that my friend, kudos to you and keep going. You're doing it all.
Nancy Surak55:09
Oh, thank you, Nancy. I can't wait to we can visit in person. And now that I know how much you love golf. We'll have to pick up nine holes here soon. Okay. All right. Well, I will see you around. Thank you again for joining us and sharing your career story.
Nancy Phaneuf Manning 55:23
Thanks for inviting me by.
Nancy Surak55:26
Thank you for joining us for another episode of She's Wild the podcast for women in land and development. If you enjoyed today's show, please go out and rate us so that we can be found by other women in our industry. And if you know women who are working in land and development, please share this podcast with them. And if you know a total rock star woman, badass chick who is killing it in land and development anywhere in North America. I want to know who she is. Please reach out to me so that I can feature her on an upcoming episode.