Today's guest is Michelle DiFebo Freeman, the owner and CEO of the Carl M. Freeman Companies, a Real Estate company established in 1947, that specializes in land acquisition, land planning, development and redevelopment, and the management of award-winning, amenity-rich residential communities, neighborhood shopping centers and commercial properties. Michelle is also a minority partner in Monumental Sports and Entertainment which owns Capital One Arena, the Washington Capitals, Wizards, Mystics and Valor Football. She is one of 13 female NBA team owners and In 2013 Elle Magazine named her as one of the 10 Most Influential Women in Washington, D.C. In this episode, Michelle and I discuss her career journey, what it was like after her husband unexpectedly passed away in a tragic accident, how she rebuilt her company after the 2009 recession, and why she loves working in development, philanthropy, and sports. For Michelle it’s all about the human connection and by the end of this show you'll understand why.
Welcome to the second season of She’s Wild, the Podcast for Women in Land & Development. Today's guest is Michelle DiFebo Freeman, the owner and CEO of the Carl M. Freeman Companies, a Real Estate company established in 1947, that specializes in land acquisition, land planning, development and redevelopment, and the management of award-winning, amenity-rich residential communities, neighborhood shopping centers and commercial properties.
Michelle is president and chairman of the Carl M. Freeman Foundation and the founding Chair of the Joshua M. Freeman Foundation, which honors her late husband Joshua Freeman by providing arts and arts education to create opportunities to elevate the human spirit. Among the numerous awards for business and philanthropic leadership, Michelle received the 2014 Irene and Abe Pollin Humanitarian Award on behalf of the Carl M. Freeman Foundation, Coastal Style Magazine’s Business Woman of the Year for 2015, 2016, and 2017.
Michelle is also a minority partner in Monumental Sports and Entertainment which owns Capital One Arena, the Washington Capitals, Wizards, Mystics and Valor Football. She is one of 13 female NBA team owners and In 2013 Elle Magazine named her as one of the 10 Most Influential Women in Washington, D.C.
In this episode, Michelle and I discuss her career journey, what it was like after her husband unexpectedly passed away in a tragic accident, how she rebuilt her company after the 2009 recession, and why she loves working in development, philanthropy, and sports. For Michelle it’s all about the human connection and by the end of this show you'll understand why.
Memorable Moments:
14:28. Believe it or not, loneliness became a huge thing for me coming out of losing my own husband, and going through the downturn, and coming out of COVID. How do people that live in our communities meet one another drove everything we did. Soft programming and creating opportunities for people to be together in Bayside became a huge thing for us as a company.
31:35. I think when it comes to women being in business, you need other women who push you forward who tell you, you can. Who encourage you, but you also need men who make space at the table for you.
37:44. I am a die-hard person who believes in capitalism, who believes in entrepreneurialism, who believes that this is the greatest country in the world, because we can build business here. I am a go-getter. I do go after a business opportunity. I can make the places where I live, I can be dedicated to making them better, AND still be a good businessperson. And those things can coexist at the same time.
Connect with Nancy:
Instagram:https://instagram.com/nancysurak
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancysurak/
Connect with Michelle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-difebo-freeman/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michfreeman1/
Watch Michelle’s TED Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEYvn4YiXWk
https://www.freemancompanies.com/
Michelle’s Podcast Recommendation:
The Daily https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736
Michelle’s Favorite Book: Who Moved My Cheese Book via Amazon: https://a.co/d/83UoCdo
She’s Wild Sound Production by Luke Surak, Surak Productions: surakproductions@gmail.com
Nancy Surak00:02
Welcome back to She's WILD, the Podcast for Women in Land & Development. Today's guest is Michelle Freeman, the owner and CEO of the Carl M. Freeman Companies, a real estate company that was established in 1947. The Carl M. Freeman Companies specializes in land acquisition, land planning, development, redevelopment, and the management of award winning amenity rich residential communities, neighborhood shopping centers and commercial properties. The company also owns and operates three golf courses including Bayside, an 18 hole award winning Jack Nicklaus signature golf course, in Fenwick Island, Delaware. Michelle is not only an amazing woman in land and development, she's also a minority partner in monumental sports and entertainment, which owns the Capital One Arena, the Washington Capitals, the Wizards, the Mystics, and Valour Football. And on top of all of that, she's also one of 13 female NBA team owners. Michelle, welcome to She's wild. Michelle, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today. And to get into your whole background. You are an incredible, incredible person. They just already know it's gonna be a great interview.
Michelle Freeman 01:26
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm happy to be here. And I'm kind of I'm like, just stoked and excited that there's a Nancy doing a she's wild podcast about female developers on like, why? Awesome. I'm a fan. I'm a fan.
Nancy Surak01:42
Yeah. Oh, well, I'm so glad. So you've come up through the, through the company and through the business? Why don't you give us a little bit more of an intro of who you are and what you're doing today?
Michelle Freeman 01:53
Yeah, so I am the CEO and President of the Carl M. Freeman Companies. We're actually out of Delaware and Montgomery County, Maryland, I started my career, gosh, in my 20s, with the company, I like to say that it was you know, I'm a spiritual person, not very religious, but pretty, pretty spiritual. And when I started, I started as a REALTOR, and really selling in Sea Colony, which was a large mixed use community that the Freeman companies was developing. And you know, I did like each job in the company, like, I sold real estate, I worked for one of the management's and management companies, and one of the managers on site, I understood the rental division because it's a, it's a resort community, right on the ocean in Delaware, I worked for the head of marketing, I worked for the head of sales, like I had all of these different jobs and why it's a spiritual thing for me is, at the time, had no idea that I would marry my husband would also like, horum when I left, like, I can't believe I'm doing this job. I, you know, I just want to, you know, do sales, I just want to be a salesperson. But, you know, it was a real inside look of all the machinations of what it takes to develop a mixed use community, that community is 2600 homes and so I was boots on the ground, literally like laying sod. I I've taken my razor and taken like, you know, the, the stickies off of windows I have, you know, worked on site development maps and, and floor plans, and, and later, I marry the boss's son, I'm like the proverbial boss, not his wife. And I married the boss's son, which was, you know, at the time, a little bit of a scandal, you know, one of the salespeople fall in love with the boss's son, Marian, and we have this really beautiful life. And then he's killed in a in a helicopter accident with three kids at the time. And I think, you know, I think that people might have thought that I was going to sell or that I would have, you know, you know, given up the company, but, you know, it was my life and it's where I come from. So I decided to keep going at the time. We were, you know, in deep at this community called Bayside, which was built around an 18 hole golf course, a Jack Nicklaus golf course in Fenwick Island right outside of Fenwick Island, Delaware, and in Selbyville, Delaware. And I was like, I remember them, like sliding the papers across from me and saying, like, we're gonna break apart the company and move on. And I was like, What will I do? And they said, Well, you can, you know, go to lunch and play tennis. And I was like, yeah, no, that's not what I want to do. I want to, I want to finish this community, I want to, you know, I want to finish what we started here. And that was 15 years ago, my husband died in 2006. And I've, you know, gone on to run the company and be involved in every aspect, much to the chagrin of some of those that work for me, because I'm a dip lower, and then come high type of CEO because I came up through the business. And, and yeah, that's where I am today. I right now, I, I just sent the meme of GaGa Gabor on the back of a tractor to one of my vice presidents of community development because he said, hey, we're, hey, we're moving dirt. On Tower Hill and Lois, we're, we're getting ready to do landscaping. And I was like, excellent. And, you know, and we're, and we're pushing dirt in another community. I mean, it's, it's my life, and I love every aspect of it.
Nancy Surak06:33
A phenomenal story. Okay, so and that's only one piece of it, which we can like, do you justice here and try to get into some other things too. But okay, so let's, let's go back. So before you started working there, did you go to school for something really real estate related?
Michelle Freeman 06:50
You know, I, I dropped out of college my first year. And I say my sister and I are these it like whatever my parents did, they really raised two women who were entrepreneurial women who my sister went to the Culinary Institute of America and has three restaurants. And really, that was her life, and her love. And mine was really that from a very young age, I remember being obsessed with what people did in houses, like, I wasn't a voyeur. But I remember like driving by communities or houses and like looking at them with their lights on thinking like, what are those people doing in there, and being mildly obsessed with architecture and the way like houses sat on lots, which I know is a silly thing to say. But I really like I loved that part of it, of the business and then started in rentals. Even when I dropped out of college, I was like, I'm going to I was young, and nobody wanted to buy a house from like a 19 year old college dropout. And you know, did that for a while did rentals, then I got into sales. And I love this idea that you were helping people, you know, figure out the next piece of their life, like how am I going to? How are people going to spend time what are they going to do? And Sea Colony is this really interesting property that my father in law started in the 70s. And being able to sell there really taught me a lot about listening to people and hearing what where they were in their life and how this real estate was going to play into that. And also, this the mixed use of it for me, which was so important, you know, how, I mean, see colonies, highly amenitized 35 tennis courts, you know, 14 swimming pools, I think in a half mile of garden beach. And I think how people and what was important to them about that really laid the groundwork for the developer, I would become, you know, as I aged and into the business. So that was my I feel like that was my college. I really do. I feel like they were very open with their salespeople being involved in every aspect of the business. And so I was on site I was around the big dirt pushers and you know, why did we do a swale here here versus dropping, you know, sewer pipe or whatever? And, and I have to say that, you know, the men in our company then because they were mostly men doing that work. They weren't put off by a 20 some year old woman, the wonder learn the business and I am really grateful to that set up for me because, again, I feel like not knowing what was going to happen. 20 years later, it probably gave me the confidence I needed to be able to run the company going forward.
Nancy Surak10:07
Yeah, because you'd seen all parts of it. Yeah. So I just want to make a quick comment. So I don't think it's weird that you were a young girl like fantasizing what people were doing in their homes. I just dropped an episode recently, that I talked about how my love of the land, and the world of development started when I was a little girl too. And I didn't grow up with it. I didn't grow. I didn't have a family member in the business. I wasn't around it. I was in like, lower middle class outside of New Orleans and played Barbies. And my Barbie was a builder. She was a developer.
Michelle Freeman 10:41
Love that.
Nancy Surak10:42
Now as as an adult and having been a land broker for 18 plus years. I'm like, I don't know how I didn't end up in the Develop development side of the business. I didn't I'm a Land Brooker. So I'm connected. I like to say it's a risk thing is yes, love risk. And I like being a broker on the land side is enough risk for me. So let's let's talk about you mentioned a few communities that you guys have built and that you've been involved with. You mentioned the original Seaside. I think you mentioned Bayside and Tidewater.
Michelle Freeman 11:17
Yeah, yeah
Nancy Surak11:18
Bayside I think in 2018. One was like huge award, right? National Community of the Year award.
Michelle Freeman 11:25
Community of the Year. Yeah.
Nancy Surak11:26
Tell me, what was that like? Having a community that you actually were a part of building and creating? To be recognized? That's such a nice, high level, nationally?
Michelle Freeman 11:36
Yeah, I think, you know, I do think our business is cumulative. I don't think you I think you kind of take what you learn from each community, and you somehow bring it into the next community. And as people are changing for what they want and need. You know, I think you apply that and I think sea colony was, you know, really, they really thought that people were going to resort there. So they were going to come in May and leave in September, and you saw more and more people going, Oh, no, we really like Delaware in this kind of living for year round. And we don't necessarily have to go to Florida to find, you know, what we're looking for. And by the way, we have kids in New York and Philadelphia and Baltimore, and, you know, Bayside or Sea Colony or Bear Trap, these are all three hours away, or I can make it to New York City in under five. And so all of a sudden you saw this, like it was less resort and more retiree and even year round young people that we're living in and moving there. I think the beauty for me with Bayside winning the awards that it's one is you know, there was thought about how people were going to live there. The houses they needed. You know, we went through, '08 '09 some of the hardest. So I my husband dies in '06 and then '08 '09, like just the world implodes and everything that we were building didn't make sense anymore. Like we were building condo product that people were just like, Yeah, we don't, we're not we're not going to live in condo product. I will say that for me, and this is Sussex County, Delaware. You know, the fact that this was a master planned community that had been master planned and all 1700 or 1800 units had been thought of and kind of put on to this RPC gave me the freedom to say, okay, this product is not working. We're coming out of this downturn, knowing that we're gonna hit it probably this is these communities are, you know, multi economic cycle communities. And so, the freedom in that RPC, what it gave me the freedom to do is say, okay, that that products not working, but this other product is working. We started listening to people around when I live here, I want to be able to ride my bike, I want to be able to, you know, have opportunities to meet my neighbors. Believe it or not, loneliness became a huge thing for me coming out of losing my own husband, and going through the downturn. And coming out of COVID is like how do people you know, meet one another? How do I meet my neighbor it become almost like a besides the house, the actual architecture and houses. How do people that live in our communities, meet one another and so soft programming and to creating opportunities for people to be together in Bayside became a huge thing for us as a company. So all of that was in the mix when we wanted in 2018. And, you know, it was it was planning a golf clubhouse, it was adding an indoor pool. That meant that when somebody came because you know, we're east coast, Delaware, it's not Florida, people aren't swimming in January, but adding a natatorium. And an indoor workout facility, I think really meant that people who besting in these houses had year round ability to, you know, swim workout and take care of themselves, which I think is just the whole wellness piece of community development is huge today. And I think the writing was on the wall for us about that. But certainly coming out of oh nine, you're like, I don't know where this is headed. But I'm going to take a chance.
Nancy Surak15:57
While and I'm sure that your sales background just gave you so much of a fundamental strength, right? Because I you know, when I sell a piece of land, I'm looking at, you know, the underlying trends, what's happening in the overall market? What do I think is gonna happen? But I'm always I always have my sales hat on. Why Why does somebody care? Yeah, this is gonna mean on the back, regardless of the type of land if it's masterplan, community land or a commercial development, unlike, who's gonna care what goes here, what's missing? What does the community want? So if you can answer those questions you can usually do okay. But I'm thinking about your timeline. And I'm thinking, I don't know how you did it. Yeah. I timed it. And you said three, three children? Yeah. At the time,
Michelle Freeman 16:43
Yes. When my husband died, in '06, I had a two year old, a four year old and a 15 year old. And, you know, what I'd say is that I just, first of all, I think the work and having a purpose between my philanthropic work and my, and, you know, doing this kind of work where you have to show up and beyond just raising kids, which I think is probably the most important thing you can do. Right? Like, I wanted to have three kids that were contributing. givers. I didn't want takers, I want I want three kids that actually wanted to give back to community and society and, and worked hard. I wanted hard workers, you know. Anyway, there was that. And I think the work itself, like made me get up in the morning and say, like, I want to finish this thing. You know?
Nancy Surak17:36
Sure. Yeah. '06. And you go into '08 and '09. And for those folks listening today that maybe weren't in the business back then. Let me just say, '08 through '10. Was really challenging.
Michelle Freeman 17:49
It was ugly, it was ugly. We went from selling just to give listeners an idea, like we went from selling, you know, 80 to 100 houses a year to selling zero, like, zero and you had people because if you remember that, '08 '09 crisis was so different than what we're going through today. Because, really, it was a banking crisis. And so you had people that had no business, owning two and three units, owning like multiple houses that were flipped right now. They had bought them for $700,000. And they were worth three, and they couldn't afford to pay the mortgage. And so it was like this whole, like shadow inventory that we had to clear before we could start selling again. And, you know, I had some good people on my side, like, that's the one thing that my father in law would say is like, surround yourself with great people and surround your self with people that are smarter than you. So the first thing is, you know, I had a chief financial officer at the time, Frank Edwards, who said, let's just clear all our inventory and sell everything we have. And so that was critical, because we had no inventory that we were carrying through. '08 '09. And then I think the second thing we did that really saved our company was that we used to be the developer and the home builder. And, you know, at the time, I could not build a house as cheaply as an NVR, a Beazer or a Pulte could and so I decided to partner for the first time. Freeman had never partnered with a builder we'd always built all our own Sea Colony, Bear Trap. We had built everything on our own. So we were developer and builder. This was the first time that I was partnering with somebody and saying, like, I'll develop the land. I'll you know, create the lots, but you all are going to have to build the houses and that was a whole different thing for for us, and transitioning my team to think about, like, who has the same core values we have who, you know, because these communities are interesting. You have to pick builders. You're you're there, you're seeing these people day in and day out. It makes for a much different kind of relationship with your homeowner. Not always easy. By the way, you know, I certainly have some people who would probably say what, Michelle, for me, you know, not, not not not a lovers of mine. And so, but I did pick great people, you know, KHovnanian, Beazer, NVR and Shell Brothers, who built homes that even though I wasn't building them, I was proud to have them in my communities. And I knew people were going to live well in them. You know, I, our tagline is, you know, is Creating Places That Enrich Lives. And, you know, if I was only doing the piece that were the amenities, and the streets, and the streetlights and the small parks, and the places that people were actually going to live outside of their homes, I want to partners who are going to build great homes that I could be proud of too.
Nancy Surak21:19
Yeah, no, that's awesome. So when you look back, and you talk about, okay, you started off in sales. Now you're running the company. When you look back at all of those transactions, all those deals, all the communities that you've built, what's been like your most favorite?
Michelle Freeman 21:33
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I marvel at what my father in law was able to do at Sea Colony. And, you know, I, I've said, I said, in other interviews that I really do feel like I have this spiritual army on the other side, I've had a lot of loss in my life. And I feel like I have like all of these people on the other side that kind of pushed me forward and you know, propel me forward. And there are times when I'm standing and Sea Colony that just the sheer size of what he did, and the vision and it's harder to see what you've done yourself. It's easier for me to look at what he did or my husband, did. You know, I mean, there's times I drive through Bayside, or Tidewater Landing or Tower Hill now. And you see people outside and they don't know who you are, and you drive through, you're in your vehicle you're checking, like, how something's been installed, or, you know, we're top paving, and I'll ride through to make sure the top paving, you know, I'm just driving through and you see like, a kid on a bike, or you see a family, you know, barbecuing in their backyard, or you see two neighbors chatting, or you drive by a pool, and there's tons of people out at the pool, and they're, you know, they're enjoying life. And you go, Oh, this is why I love this business. You know, yeah, this is more so I can't say it's one thing I can't say it's one community. The other night, I was driving home from Bayside where we had done this concert. You know, I have the Freeman Arts Pavilion is part of my my philanthropic life at Bayside. And we had done this concert, that where I was like, I had all the fields because we had military men and women there that, you know, come and stay for free for a week in through this program called Seize The Day. And we had a concert, and I was driving back through Sea Colony. And they were doing like this huge tennis and pickleball tournament. And I was like this is, what I get to do is amazing. And it's not always easy like you and I could have a whole podcast about what social media has done and does to developers, right? Or the NIMBY movement, or, you know, how we have to balance the environment and development and you know, density versus sprawl. I mean, there's a million things you and I could talk about. But at the end of the day, really, it's about human connection and creating the places that that happens. And, you know, as a person that's had trauma and loss. It's like at the end of the day, that's what matters, right? It's people spending time together?
Nancy Surak24:57
Yeah. And it's really cool because yeah, I always tell a developers that I work with. I'm like, you know, when you build something, even now I am way out of the picture. By the time you even start construction, I take credit for whatever you build, because I was involved in like a little piece of it. I was like, if anything, that's sometimes you know, I'll be like y'all should do this or that or this. But it is an incredibly rewarding business, right, regardless of where you're at in the stage. And when I talk to women, that comes up pretty consistently of being able to shape how people live, which is really, really cool. So speaking of which, you you actually just brought up another thing I wanted to chat with you about, which was this pavilion that you guys built in honor of your husband? Yeah. And, you know, I just started recently asking this question, but since you do this, it's going to be very suited. You might not be ready for this one. What is your favorite hype song? Since you love the arts and music, and you're doing these concerts, you got to have something that you love?
Michelle Freeman 26:03
Yeah, that's so funny that you're asking that I did. I was the speaker for my nephew's graduation from high school. And my advice to them was this question that you just asked me that, like.
Nancy Surak26:19
oh, my gosh
Michelle Freeman 26:20
That every human should use music as a way to lift themselves out and and you should have a fight song. So one of the performers that we had was Rachel Platt, and she came to the Freeman Arts Pavilion and sang Fight Song, which is, you know, probably one of my favorite. Yeah, I mean, there are so many Nancy there. For me, like, I have gotten in my car and felt afraid or felt beaten down or felt, you know, like, Oh, God, why am I doing this? And you put music on? And I mean, everything from Taylor Swift, to, you know, you name it. I mean, like, there's, there are too many, too many to say.
Nancy Surak27:16
Well, it's always great. I love to ask it when I throw it out there. Because I was recently I recently did a speaking presentation. And part of my presentation was one of the tools you can use when you don't feel great, right? And you're lacking Self Confidence is to have a Hype playlist, and something that just like really raises your spirits. It's always like updating mine. So I started asking people what's on your what's on your playlist, like when you need something to get you like revved up, whether that's going into a public hearing, or going into a deal that you're going to close or going into a challenging meeting, you know, that you know, is that's been keeping you up for days that you know, is going to be not fun. What do you play to set yourself in the right frame of mind? Yeah, so I love that you shared the Fight Song, I'm gonna have to go look that up, because I'm not familiar with the song.
Michelle Freeman 28:06
Once you hear it, you'll know you'll be like, Oh, yes, yes, yes. I remember this. It was like, Yeah, five years ago or whatever. Yeah, it's, it's a great one. That's the one that comes to my mind. But like I said, you know, they're all different. And especially in the business, the entertainment business that I'm in, you'll hear a song and you'll be like, Oh, this is my, you know, this connects me to I mean, I think music like real estate, are their connectors, their connector points in our brain like places, so absolutely.
Nancy Surak28:37
And it does something to you know, like, how you're like your moods, right? And you're exactly what you said, like the brain how the brain all works. It's, it's amazing. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to take a little bit of a turn in the interview now, because I'm a huge Lightning fan down here in Tampa Bay Hockey. So I want to talk to you about your athletic sports, love, and that whole business.
Michelle Freeman 29:05
Sure.
Nancy Surak29:07
2018 was a really good year for you.
Michelle Freeman 29:09
It really was thinking about that and 2019, 2018, the Capitals of Washington Capitals, which I'm a minority partner and won the Stanley Cup. And then 2019, the Washington Mystics, who's our girls, female basketball team, won the championship. Sports for me, it's interesting. So we talked about music. We've talked about this commonality around, you know, living and how we live, but sports and music for me, you know, are very similar in the fact that when you're in a sports arena or watching a concert, there's nothing that that keeps you apart from your neighbor, right like there's politics doesn't get in the way you know, religion doesn't get in the way. Right, you are experiencing something together. And you know, I think that's probably why I love it. Beside the development business and, and community development and, and I'm in retail as well, right so I own shopping, grocery anchored shopping centers. I have two golf courses that I own. And then I'm minority partner in monumental sports and entertainment, which owns the Washington caps, the Washington Wizards and the Washington Mystics. And then I became a minority partner in the girls or women's soccer team, the Washington Spirit last year. And, again, you know, mostly male dominated, I feel like every business I'm in is pretty male dominated. I have an incredible two female partners in the monumental sports, Sheila Johnson, who was the creator, co creator of BET. And Laurene Powell Jobs, whose was Steve Jobs wife. And, you know, I think we, you know, are all very supportive of one another. I stayed in the sports business because outside of the golf business, but in the sports teams, because Ted Leonsis, who's the majority owner of the Washington Caps, wizards and mystics really encouraged me to. And so I think when it comes to women being in business, you need other women who push you forward who tell you, you can who encourage you, but you also need men who make space at the table for you and represent. Yeah, and he, he has one of the most diverse, you know, partnerships in all of sports in Monumental Sports. And, and it has been the guy seriously, beside the development company, one of the greatest joys of my life. The reason being you said you were raised in, I think you said a blue collar family. I too, was raised outside of Philadelphia and Wilmington, Delaware. And you know, we had no money and I sat in the 400 nosebleeds to watch the Flyers play and my father, we grew up Eagles fans and Phillies fans shout out to the Phillies who just made the World Series. And, you know, sports again, was a was a way you connect it to people. And so the idea that this girl, you know, whose dad was in construction, he my father was a hardwood floor guy. You know, as minority partner was sports team, it has, it has just been the greatest joy in my life. I will also say that as a widower, you know, on a Friday or Saturday night, we have an owner's box. And it's a family. It's, it's, it's 14 families who own these sports teams together. And on a Friday or Saturday night when I had nothing to do, and it felt weird to be out and about, you know, by myself, I could walk into the stadium, I would walk in Everyone say, hey, Michelle, Hi, Michelle. Hey, how's it going? How's it going? And I would watch the sport that I grew up, you know, watching the flyers and, and Bobby Clark and Bernie prawns and all these people. And, and it was just a night that I could be with people that I felt comfortable with, and loved me and I loved them. And it was critically important in those early years when, when I was sad, and I was by myself and, and they made room for me. And now it's a huge platform for me, in sports and for my philanthropy and for being in the City of Washington, which I dearly love.
Nancy Surak34:01
That's so awesome. I couldn't wait. I mean, I think I was more excited about talking to you about owning sports teams than I was talking to you about land development. Mainly because I recognize how important that is for communities. Right? Yeah, I mean, you know, I mentioned I'm down here in Tampa and you know, our communities already right now. Mainly because we're watching what's happening with our Buccaneers and a great football player and it's in it's like people you can tell it's like affected like this underlying just not great. Yeah, sense. You know, so folks are you know, really looking to the lightning being in our in our hockey team, and they're like, please get some wins. Because we need it. And we're actually down here a hockey town. I don't know if you know that. I don't know if you've come down here at all. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Have you met?
Michelle Freeman 34:50
I've been to Tampa Bay and we got swept by Tampa Bay and the playoffs. I can't remember what year it was. But I remember like walking back to my hotel was like, I think Nick Backstrom, and Alexander Salman, and just being like, so dejected. But I think, you know, look, I think that's all part of sports, too is like, right, this, this power and passion you feel for the game. And there's something really beautiful to your point about, you know, when ownership stands for the city and I and I think the I think the beautiful piece about Ted Leonsis, in the, in the, in Monumental Sports is that, you know, he really sees sports ownership as a public trust. And so, you know, years ago, I would sleep outside right before Thanksgiving for this nonprofit called Covenant House and it, it, you know, housed young teenage homeless people, and got them their education and back in the workforce. And, you know, he didn't have to do this, but, you know, monumental sports sent a camera crew with man, we slept outside and raise money and, you know, did a feature about why I did that. And I think that's the, the when, when that organization says it's a double bottom line business that it believes in, in running a really profitable, tight championship organization. And it also gives back to the communities where its employees, you know, live and where it's sports teams play. It's a beautiful thing.
Nancy Surak36:46
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I had an opportunity to meet our owner, Jeff Vinik, was my daughter was a recipient of one of his scholarship awards. Excellent. And it was, by far really like, a top five experience of my life of, and I wasn't even the recipient does, but she was the recipient, based on some philanthropy work that she did in high school and his organization and the lightning, they recognize that and every game, so I really have sports owners who really do take the philanthropy side of their business. So incredibly serious.
Michelle Freeman 37:28
Yeah. Agreed, agreed. And, and I think fans feel that and I think employees, like my own employees in my own company, when they know that it's just not all about I mean, it can be about business, like I am a die hard. Person who believes in capitalism, who believes in entrepreneurialism, who believes that this is the greatest country in the world, because we can build business here. My father in law, you know, came from nothing, and, and my husband served in the army. So I feel like a patriotic person around that. And I think all that being said, it doesn't always have to be that you're, you know, that that I don't even want to use the word greed, because people will say that I'm greedy, and I hate it. Because I am a go getter. I do go after a business opportunity. Now, it's about like saying, I can make the places where I live, I can be dedicated to making them better, and still be a good business person. And those two things can coexist at the same time. Yeah, I love that.
Nancy Surak38:41
Yeah, I do, too. I do, too. So at towards the end of every interview, I always ask a few questions. Yeah. One of them is, if a young person were to reach out to you and say, while Michelle, your background is amazing, I'd love to get into development, or maybe sports ownership. I'm just looking for some advice of what would you what could I focus on? And what should I be thinking about as I pursue my dreams? What would you tell them?
Michelle Freeman 39:11
Yeah. So I'll take the development side first. I mean, in in development, I think what you did, because so I went from selling homes, to putting together land deals and doing acquisition for Freeman. That was the last job I had before I married my husband. And so I think learning every part of this business is so critically important. I think getting in and not being afraid like in my car, you'll find a hard hat. And you'll find a pair of wellies because I'm not afraid to like, rip off my high heels and get my boots muddy, right? Like get out on the site, look and see what someone's doing and how we create neighborhoods and it's not it's not all always pretty, it's not, you know, it's not always it's, you know, it's, it's hard work, right. So I'd say like just getting involved in, in a company that you love the communities they're building and get in, however you can. I think having a real estate background and being able to sell and understanding what a buyer goes through, when they're trying to make up their mind drives everything that you do, just like, in my shopping center business, you know, how does somebody feel about walking, you know, from your grocery anchor to the post office? Or to some? What, what is that relationship with the real estate that you're creating? So, there's that, and I would say, align yourself with good good women who make space, and don't be afraid to talk to the men who are in the business, right? Like, there are, there are not many people right now doing, like the dirt work in our business. On the sports side, I'd say get involved early, there are a lot of people who want to be in the sports business, and go instead of doing you know, an inch deep and a mile wide and sports, you know, study sports law, study, the management of large scale, events, spaces, right, like, that's part of our business to the fact that it goes our arena goes from being a CAPS game. On top of that, you know, is is the hardwood for the wizards playing. And the next day, Bruce Springsteen might not you know, might be there. So, like, I'm, I'm enamored with a building that can be all of these things. And so that's kind of where the real estate and the management piece and the sports come together. So I say, pick a piece of the business and go deep in that in that in the study of that of that business.
Nancy Surak42:06
Fantastic advice. Yeah. Okay, so the next question I like to ask is, do you have a favorite inspirational book or podcasts that you listen to regularly or that you've listened to recently, that you'd love to just share with us? Right?
Michelle Freeman 42:20
Yeah, I'm a fan of the Daily because it's, you know, it's a daily New York Times it goes deep on one subject, I always I feel smarter when I'm done listening to it. It's fact based. I don't feel like there's a whole lot of conjecture and it's just, it just is so the Dale is one of my favorite. I love people like Glenn Doyle. I love Brene Brown on the spiritual side of who I am as a woman, and just trying to be a better person. I would say, my favorite book is an oldie but goodie, I'm gonna throw it's like throwback Tuesday instead of Throwback Thursday. But there was a book by Spencer Johnson called Who Moved My Cheese. Yeah. And it asked the question, how would you live your life if you weren't afraid? And that is something I asked myself all the time. You know, what would you do Michelle, right now today, if you weren't afraid, I think it's, you know, having faith that it's all going to be okay. Even when you like when you step into that next space when the door opens and you're unsure this morning, I I was the speaker at the Montgomery County, Maryland Business Hall of Fame. And, you know, I haven't spoken in a while I haven't been like because of Covid. I've been kind of shut down a little bit and I'm scared like, and I that's the way I started my speech. Like by acknowledging like, you know, I'm afraid today, I'm afraid to be up here, but I'm just gonna go for it. And so I'd say Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson and, and I had a my, my middle child was trying to decide whether to to leave a college in the northeast and go to you Miami, between his sophomore and junior year. And I gave him that book or it came into his life. And it was his dad's favorite book, which is it was one of my husband's favorite books and and I think books that ask a question of you they don't tell you what to do. But they asked ask a question of yourself. How would you live if you weren't afraid? And he decided to go to you Miami he's and he's beyond happy and he loves it. So what's on my list to read is Live Wire by Kelly Ripa. You know, heard it's incredible and that's probably the next thing I'm going to be rude.
Nancy Surak44:48
You know what now that you say that I need to add that to my list as well because I saw some of the headlines. I came out of some of the early reviews of the book and I and she was getting some hate pay for some of the things that she said about her business or her partner on the show. Phil? Yeah, Amber's last name. But you know. And I was like, why are you doing that probably stunk for her. Like, he was just like, pretty untouchable guy. And I'm sure he was nice, but at the same time, it I'm sure it was not easy for her to make her own space, you know? So yeah, so that'll be a good read. I totally agree with that. I'm gonna add that on my list. And then finally, as we wrap up, where can folks that are here today, keep up with you? Are you active on social media? Do you have like a LinkedIn account that you post to? Or do you pretty much to say, I'm just too busy for all of that?
Michelle Freeman 45:42
No, no, no, I do do LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I will, I will put I will figure out how to say what my where?
Nancy Surak45:53
I'll grab it for the show notes. Yeah. If you're.
Michelle Freeman 45:56
I'm on Instagram. I love Instagram. And, and yeah, and I, you know, I like to follow Twitter, but I don't tweet as much as Yeah, that's the one where I really don't have time. I'm like, it's nice to follow people. But it's, it's, it's Yeah, Instagram and LinkedIn for me.
Nancy Surak46:17
Fantastic. Well, I want to thank you again, for joining me on the show. It is just my quest to share stories just like yours, in our business of really phenomenal women who have done some remarkable things in their career, who've overcome different obstacles in their career to build these great spaces. And I just want to thank you, because I know that this episode will inspire so many people that are listening. And you know, that's what that's all I'm doing it for is to share the stories. And I hear from people every single week that are just like I'm getting in, or I'm changing my job, or I'm gonna start my own gig or whatever. So thank you again for joining me here today.
Michelle Freeman 46:59
Yeah, thank you, Nancy, I love that you you're doing this, She's WILD. Who else is in this space, like talking about women and development?
Nancy Surak47:09
No one, that's why I created the podcast.
Michelle Freeman 47:12
And I love this. Like when when I heard that you and I were going to be speaking I was just so excited. I'm just such a huge fan. And I will say for women who are thinking about you know, making a change or getting into this business. It's an it's an amazing business. And, you know, one day at a time, I've found my way, you know, and just going to the next thing and the next thing and being open to learning from you from others who have been in the business. And I just can't say enough, I absolutely love it. So I feel
Nancy Surak47:47
I feel the same exact way. And Michelle, I hope that the next time you make it down to Tampa, that you will let me know I would love to come and you know, see you at one of the games and you know, I won't say hope to see you win, but I love hockey it is it is my favorite sport to watch live. And I would love to meet you in person.
Michelle Freeman 48:12
You can wear your Tampa Bay jersey, I'll wear my Caps jersey and we'll share we'll share a game. And likewise, if you're ever in Delaware, I'd love to show you around Bayside and show you what all the hype is about LiveBayside.com is the website for that and just show you you know why we think you know dirt and development and houses can you know connect human beings and loneliness and be just such a positive part of people's retirement or their life? This is what development is about. So thank you for giving me the chance to share that.
Nancy Surak48:51
Yep, absolutely. We'll see you around take care of bye bye. Thank you for joining us for another episode of She's Wild, the podcast for women in land and development. If you enjoyed today's show, please go out and rate us so that we can be found by other women in our industry. And if you know women who are working in land and development, please share this podcast with them. And if you know a total rock star woman, badass chick who is killing it in land and development anywhere in North America. I want to know who she is. Please reach out to me so that I can feature her on an upcoming episode.