Welcome back to the second season of She’s Wild, the Podcast for Women in Land & Development. Today's guest is Kelli Lawrence, the CEO of Onyx+East. As CEO, Kelli leads the strategic vision and growth efforts for Onyx+East, including determination of new markets and business lines, development of teams to execute the business, capital relationships and structuring to achieve goals and leading corporate culture to recruit and retain top talent. In today's episode Kelli reflects on her 20 plus years of development experience and the risks she took along the way.
Welcome back to the second season of She’s Wild, the Podcast for Women in Land & Development. Today's guest is Kelli Lawrence, the CEO of Onyx+East. As CEO, Kelli leads the strategic vision and growth efforts for Onyx+East, including determination of new markets and business lines, development of teams to execute the business, capital relationships and structuring to achieve goals and leading corporate culture to recruit and retain top talent.
Before joining Onyx+East, Kelli was a partner for 18 years at a private, Midwest-based, multi-family development firm. While there, she led development, construction and overall market execution in the Louisville and Indianapolis markets for more than 3,000 for-sale and rental housing units valued at more than $600 million. She has more than 20 years of experience in real estate development.
As an active member of the Indianapolis community, Kelli was named a Woman of Influence by Indiana Business Journal in 2021. She is an active member of both the national and Indiana chapters of the Urban Land Institute and has served as chair in Indiana. She has served as the Vice Chair of the National MultiFamily Product Council, is a past chair of the Ball State University Alumni Council, and is a Foundation Board Director for the Ball State University Foundation.
Memorable Moments:
"I'm really proud of my people work as much as my real estate work. The people part of what I do is what excites me the most now. I love when our team members get elevated to a new role and take on new responsibilities and are successful. It’s really gratifying to see what we physically build, but bringing together all the right people to make a real estate deal happen, because it takes a ton of people in many different specialties, to make a successful project come to fruition, that’s the best part."
"We do a deep dive into the market fundamentals. We still view ourselves as more of a boutique builder, so we're not looking for locations where we're going to be competing against the public homebuilders because that's just a very difficult place for a smaller builder to be. We look for phenomenal locations where there’s lot of renovation activity and tear-downs to new construction building. We are very focused on thoughtful design in a more urban context because we're choosing locations where walkability and connectedness to a neighborhood is important."
"It took me a while in my career, especially as I was working with some very seasoned real estate executives, to be willing to raise my hand and say hey, I don't think we should do this deal, or I really think we should, or I think we're missing something. Taking that risk of being wrong and being willing to stick your neck out is something I wish I would have done sooner in my career."
Connect with Nancy:
Instagram:https://instagram.com/nancysurak
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancysurak/
Website: www.nancysurak.com
Connect with Kelli:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelli-lawrence-029bb74/
Website: https://www.onyxandeast.com/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@onyxandeast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/onyxandeast/
She’s Wild Sound Production by: Luke Surak, Surak Productions: surakproductions@gmail.com
Nancy Surak00:00
Welcome to She's Wild, the podcast for women in land and development. I'm your host, Nancy Surak. I created this podcast as a way to collect conversations of women in the land and development industry. I've been a land broker on the west coast of Florida for nearly 20 years. And I love to empower other women and to tell them about this amazing industry. But I find often that there just aren't enough women being featured on big stages, whether that's at local conferences, or nationally. So I set out to find these women myself, that are killing it in my business across North America that are changing the communities that they live in every single day, whether they're building condos, multifamily, single family, office, or industrial projects, I hope that you will find this space to be inspirational, motivating, and educational. From time to time, I will feature women who are not only in my business, but also career coaches, and motivational speakers. Welcome back to shoes while the podcast for women and land and development. Today's guest is Kelli Lawrence, the CEO of Onyx+East. Kelli, welcome to the show. I am thrilled to have you here today, because I passed two of your projects in Tampa, this past week, and I'm so excited to better learn about what you're doing here and then learn about how you originally got in the business. So I'm gonna go ahead and just turn it over to you. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit more about your background and how you started the company and what you're working on?
Kelli Lawrence01:42
Sure, well, I'm I'm so happy to be here with me. And for you to talk and share my story. I actually started in real estate in the urban planning field. So I started right out of college. That's where I went to college for my undergraduate degrees in urban planning and started off in the public sector with a fast growing suburban community in the Indianapolis area, which is where I'm from and our company's headquarters. So I really through that was able to be in a community that was doing a lot of public private partnership work. And so because I was most interested in that, I kind of raised my hand and said, Hey, I want to work on those projects, those look like a lot of fun, they look more interesting than kind of subdivision plats, and zoning reviews and things of that nature. And so I really was fortunate very early in my career at the star to get to interface with real estate developers on some really cool projects. And this Carmel, Indiana, which is somewhat known in terms of suburban redevelopment efforts. So I had the opportunity there to really learn a little bit about real estate, but quite honestly was not thinking about real estate as the path for me in terms of development, I decided actually to leave the public sector just decided that wasn't for me, I was found myself to be a little bit, maybe too aggressive to durag, you know, for kind of the political life, especially at that age, and at that part of my career. So I left to go get my MBA then I was gonna go get it and really focus on marketing and really change career courses. But I had two developers who were part of the redevelopment area in which I was working as a city planner, who called me when I left the public sector and said, Hey, we're starting a private development company, they were with a public development company in transitioning out of that and said, We'd really like for you to be kind of our first employee and, and help us get the company going. And, and I said, Well, okay, but I really don't think I'm going to be a real estate developer, but you know, I gotta get my MBA. And if you support me getting my MBA, I'll, you know, take this leap and join the company. And I've been partners with those two gentlemen and some others for almost 20 years. So ended up really, you know, heading down a career path that I never saw for myself, started off, you know, with that group doing really adaptive reuse condominium development back in the early 2000s. So redeveloped a lot of classical buildings, downtown Indianapolis was really our focus at that point, staying in Indiana. And then through kind of as the real estate market change, we were evolving our business and moving into multifamily development. And, you know, worked on developing a regional institutional multifamily development company headquartered in Indianapolis, we've expanded more throughout the Midwest. And I was a principal leading development in our Indianapolis market and then I went and opened up our little market, built a team their source and ran our first projects there. did that until 2019. And, you know, I was just at a career inflection point and looking for a bit of a change and really made me to lead in a different way. I really loved doing deals. But I, through my prior company, really loved you know, that experience going to Louisville opening up a market building and growing a team and kind of getting to do all that. So I had the opportunity to join Onyx+East in 2019. Onyx+East was actually formed by people I've known back from my college days also fellow Ball State Urban Planning graduates. And so again, we were kind of friendly competitors for many years in both the residential and the multifamily space. And you know, the group that had started the company was really looking to grow it outside of really with a small niche, homebuilder in Indianapolis, was looking to grow the company and for me, it was the perfect opportunity at the right time to take a leap and to move into really, you know, the CEO role and help push Onyx+East forward. So it's, it's been an interesting but a really rewarding and exciting career path.
Nancy Surak06:14
So that was in 2019, that you joined.
Kelli Lawrence06:16
That was in 2019. It was so since that time, so I joined Onyx+East, again, the goal, in the excitement of why I was really excited was I love what we do, I love our product, I love the customers we serve. But I also love the opportunity to grow and build a team. So we've moved into the Tampa market now, very active in the Tampa St. Pete market, we've opened up offices in Columbus and Cincinnati and Ohio. And we've actually added a build to rent business line over the last 18 months. So we've grown in company size, we've we've almost quadrupled in size from when I joined and, and our volume has grown significantly, and also our market market reach. So it's been it's been a great experience.
Nancy Surak07:05
That's very exciting. So I took a look back at your, you know, your history or career history even just to become more familiar with you. And I was like, oh, man, she's been doing this for a long time, which is great. What, I originally led you to study urban planning, like what was it when you were younger woman younger girl that you were like, that's where I'm gonna at least go and study the field of urban planning.
Kelli Lawrence07:31
Yeah, it is kind of a unique field. And I really did go to college intentionally with that thought. You know, I always thought about architecture early on. And, and I really like I've always loved math and numbers. And I've really always loved art and that creative side and my mother, honestly very early, you know, second third grade said, Well, you should think about being an architect, Kelli, you've got these skills. And so I just did some things along the way to keep developing those skills. And in the back of my mind, it was always like, this is a really cool career path as an architect. As I just got older, I really I love a lot of different things like I am kind of this. I'm kind of a nerd, I love to learn, I want to know about every every aspect of everything, which I think is how real estate development has really been a great fit for me. But I started to realize I while I love the architecture, I really like kind of the broader world, the broader picture and urban planning, you know, has a lot of the design, design process design thought that you have with architecture, but it also is very contextual. It takes in, you know, a little bit more of a macro view. And so when I was making my college decision, I wanted an architecture program that had the Urban Planning specialty. And that's how I ended up Ball State, which has a phenomenal program in there through their architecture college. So it still has that design thinking component along with all the the aspects that go into kind of city, city and urban planning.
Nancy Surak08:57
So from urban planning to being the CEO, what's been your favorite role? And I know you're gonna say, I love what I'm doing right now, obviously, right? But which part? Do you love the most? When you're working on a project or when you look back at your career?
Kelli Lawrence09:17
You know, I'm really proud of my people work as much as my real estate work. And I've done some amazing projects and real estate so gratifying because you get to really, you know, I get to see what I do all the time when I go to different markets and even, you know, projects I did 20 years ago, I when I drive by them, I'm you know, it's like I did that I had a hand in that. You know, it's exciting. But it's really kind of the people part of what I do that it that excites me the most especially now and maybe as I'm getting older I Love You know, I've seen some people that I hired and worked with over the years and seeing them grow and succeed and maybe getting to partner with them in a different way. Watching our team grow. Watch and people within our team grow in our organization, especially because we've been a very high growth organization. So I love when you know, our team members get elevated to a new role and take on new responsibilities and are successful. So obviously, it's it's really gratifying to see what you do physically built and think you had a hand in that. But I really am excited about the people aspects of, of what we do, and bringing together all the right people to make a real estate deal happen, because it takes a ton of people and in many different specialties, to make a successful project come to fruition.
Nancy Surak10:37
So as you look into when you guys are going into new markets, you know, you've I think, three or four markets, right, that you've gotten into since you started there. Correct? How do you work together those teams like what are you looking for? Who's the first person you call in those markets?
Kelli Lawrence10:54
You know, we start with just meeting with the local experts. So we meet with the real estate brokers, the land planners, elected officials in places we want to be mayors, what's your story? What's your vision for for your community, we are definitely more urban focused. So we're kind of looking for places that have worked densified development, and that can be in suburban areas as well. But it's really getting to know kind of those local experts, you know, then we look for where's the new cool up and coming? You know, on Yelp, where's the hot new restaurants, and are they clustered in a certain area, you know, where's the best coffee shop and the in the location, because we're very location based, we want to be in walkable, bikeable mixed use location. So it is very, you know, building those early relationships, but also getting to know and getting immersed in the local culture is really critical. And then and then we spend a lot of time finding the right people locally, usually, it starts with our land team. Because obviously, we have to start with finding good land sites before we bring on the rest of our operational team. But finding land people that really believe in, you know, the product, we build the locations we build in, have vision, because sometimes what we do, you know, especially in urban and redeveloping areas, it's not as obvious it's not the data doesn't always support it day one. But it's looking for those trends and looking for, again, where where dynamics of a location are changing, where growth is oriented, where population where our customer base is changing. So you know, people that are really passionate about that vision, and that are very entrepreneurial. So you know, we are still a small entrepreneurial company. We need people that are willing to kind of do a little bit of everything, especially in new markets. I always, you know, when we were getting started in Florida, our first few people I hired I said, Hey, I built the desk that's over there myself Monday, because we were building a new office, and we had done some desks. And so I said, you know, that's what the expectation we have everyone on our team is like you're willing to do what it takes to help us be successful and help us you know, grow, especially those that are starting up new markets for us.
Nancy Surak13:10
Right. That's a great story that you put it to the desk across the room like so I not afraid to roll up my sleeves, right and get the work done. Whatever it is.
Kelli Lawrence13:19
Yeah. Yeah. Apsolutely.
Nancy Surak13:20
Way to set the bar, you know, because that's not very common. I'll tell you. So I love that you guys are, you know, super entrepreneurial. How did you when you guys are looking at markets to expand into what are you looking for? How did you I mean, you guys weren't in Florida. Tampa was your first market, correct?
Kelli Lawrence13:40
Correct.
How did you pick Tampa?
Kelli Lawrence13:42
Yeah. So we do like the balance of Florida, very high growth, very dynamic market with Midwest, which is definitely much steadier, steady Eddy Midwest. So we we really liked the idea of adding a very high growth market into kind of our Midwest, home base. We really ended up though in Tampa opportunistically. So through relationships we had with other companies and other parties. You know, we were able to find some projects that fit exactly what we do in the same types of neighborhoods that we build in Indianapolis. So you know, Kenwood, St. Pete, and South Tampa in Hyde Park areas in Tampa. And there were some projects that frankly what the local people were struggling to get capitalized and we have a significant investor base and so we were able to come in and help capitalize some projects kind of get our get to know the market better understand where we fit in and you know, found that again it Tampa is just a phenomenal market and St. Pete that whole region, you know, a lot of growth again, a lot of great neighborhoods that that fit what we do and felt like we could fill a bit of a void in the market and bring some scale into that kind of urban infill for particularly townhome type of development in that market. And so you know, it's we're looking for new markets, we went into Ohio, Ohio has a lot of great growth dynamics, it is still a little steadier, like the Midwest. But, you know, Columbus, there's been a big announcement with Intel. There's a very diverse economy at Ohio State University. It's a growing community. Again, for us operationally, we can leverage our operations in Indiana, they're a bit. But we are we are looking for places where you know, there are those neighborhoods that have that lifestyle that is going to draw our consumer, that there's land opportunity. And then we are also looking for places where we can execute our build to rent strategy as well, which is more first here, suburban, great schools, great home values. So we really want to do both business lines as we enter new markets, and spend a lot of time before we decide to officially plant a flag getting to know each place.
Nancy Surak16:04
Got it. So when you establish it, so I understand how you look at where you're gonna go, how you hire people. Let's talk a little bit more about your products. And what you guys were building maybe before or like in the very beginning, and you know, before COVID, and then what you how you guys have evolved, or you talked about the bill for rent space, but how has the company evolved over the last several years in terms of when you're looking at opportunities in the market? What product will you put there?
Kelli Lawrence16:35
So you know, it really is a deep dive into the market fundamentals, we build on our for sale business line, we still view ourselves as more of a boutique builder. So you know, we're not looking for locations where we're going to be competing against the public homebuilders because that's just a very difficult place for a smaller builder to be. So looking for those phenomenal locations where, you know, we're seeing a lot of renovation activity, maybe a lot a lot purchases and teardown new construction building. And then the product we offer a variety of different townhome communities. So in a neighborhood that may be more on the fringe and we have an entry level tonal product that is more of a pitched roof two and three bedroom we do typically do very urban oriented so rarely will you see a front load garage on any of our communities, you know it we are very focused on thoughtful design in a more urban context, because we're choosing locations where that walkability that connectedness to a neighborhood is important. So you know, we do have our more entry level townhomes. And then you know, all the way up to we have locations that are in, you know, a South Tampa location, which is a very prestigious place to be in where we have a very luxury brownstone type product, three stories with a fourth floor living room and a rooftop deck. And so the product decision is really based on the sub market and price points within that sub market and who we think our target consumer is. But we offer kind of everything in that range. And we also do have some single family detached we do in our for-sale division, but it's primarily townhome communities that we're focused on. On our build to rent product, we're very focused on three- and four-bedroom single family detached, so it's a bit odd, right, you know, we're doing kind of larger product in our built rental business line, because that is typically more suburban. We're, we're focused more on, you know, roommates, doubling up families, empty nesters, people that are looking for more space for lifestyle reasons. And people that are more focused perhaps on the schools and some suburban employment corridors and things of that nature.
Nancy Surak18:53
What makes a site not work?
Kelli Lawrence18:57
Well, we take on a lot of difficult sites. So being urban oriented here, we we do take on difficult sites. But you know, I think especially in today's environment, if we're having to underwrite one, we're focused on land comps, we have to be buying the land at a reasonable price. And I think in today's environment, there's a lot of, there's a lot of resetting in that in the land environment. And that always seems to take longer than the broader real estate environment. So we want to make sure we're paying the right price for the land, and if and that we can get the right time. So if the seller is unwilling to give us the time, we need either to get entitlements to get financing lined up in today's environment, we will walk from video like it just we have to have the time we need to put together a successful transaction. And then it's just our underwriting. You know, we're very disciplined in our underwriting and so if we're trying to stretch on every metric to make a deal work, it's not going to it's not going to happen.
Nancy Surak19:56
It's a no right now. I have some very challenging sellers, you know, and I try to be as upfront as possible with developers and other brokers when I know I have someone who is going to make everyone jump, you know, 100 foot hurdles, every week, I'm like, listen, like, eyes wide open, you come into this deal, you know, I got a challenging seller here are here are the ways that the steel is, here's how you're going to be successful, you have to decide if you want to work that hard. You know, it's always amazing to me to see how different people react because I do a lot of work with this particular family. And it's just, some folks are just like, they're out to convince me that they're in it to win. And I'm like, no, no, you're not listening. Like, it's, it's a lot of work, you know, in this business is a lot of work, you have to love it.
Kelli Lawrence20:46
You do have to love it. And these projects take up most of what we do has to be re entitled, you know, we while we have some building footprints that are core to our business, we do really do contextual design. And so if there is a lot of time and effort involved in and to your point, I think, you know, I think there are some sites that are worth the difficulties of a difficult seller, and there are some sites, it's like, this is just Life's too short, you know, we we have to find that the opportunity that we think we can execute in a more reasonable manner. So, yeah,
Nancy Surak21:26
100%. So when you look back at your projects, we're talking about difficult sellers. Is there a project that you've been involved with that sticks out as something that was super challenging that you actually did get to build and see come to life that you look back at now and say, you know, I'm glad that we stuck in there. I'm glad that I worked really hard to see the end result.
Kelli Lawrence21:50
Sure, yeah, I had an apartment project I worked on in Louisville, Kentucky, and it had about every difficulty, it was in a Brownfield. It was on a floodplain. It had weird easements, cross access easements with a seller it was also in a in a redeveloping area was an area where it took kind of vision for our team and our capital partners to understand what was happening in this area. And it took a really long time to get closed. And then bill, it was a very difficult build, because it was five storeys of wood over a podium parking podium to get us out of the floodplain. And in you know, that is you're proud of every project you do, but that's one where to your point, it's like, Wow, I'm so glad we stuck with it, I'm so glad we overcame every hurdle, because the project was extremely successful. And it's leased up you know, we hit all of our targets, and you know, is a successful transaction at the end of the day, and the neighborhood is proven out to be really a great place to be so on all all aspects from the difficulties through entitlement construction, financing, you know, it really, it's, it's one I'm extremely proud of when I when I'm in that market, and can drive by and say, Wow, that was really successful. But that was very hard. And I'm so glad we stuck with it. To make that project happen,
Nancy Surak23:10
There's a lot of experience there, I might have a couple of sites like that I should talk to you about offline. Because even as a broker of like when I get them, but like, oh, I'm so blessed to have this challenge That's a great way of thinking about it.
Kelli Lawrence23:29
Yeah, and we, you know, we're often dealing in historic neighborhoods, again, with brownfields and all of that given given, again, over the urban nature of what we do, which we think is a competitive advantage, because a lot of people just are unwilling to take on some of those risks. And, and we're experienced in dealing with them. So again, as long as the seller is going to give us the time and get to work with us to work through those challenges. You know, we do look at some very difficult and complex sites right
Nancy Surak23:57
and I appreciate you sharing that. That story and sharing what I'm hearing is you have to balance everything. Right. So talking about balance, you mentioned earlier, you have the you know, obviously the bill for rent, you've got the single family for sale, what's the breakdown overall in the company? Do you guys hold some of your assets? Or do you sell to investors like merchant builders for the things that are more rental based?
Kelli Lawrence24:23
Sure. So we our business is definitely shifting more towards built to rent some of that's just sheer volume of, you know, those projects are 150 homes per community versus our rent or for sale is 30 homes per community. So we're probably from a volume of home delivery going to be shifting towards 80 to 90%, build to rent 10 to 20%, for sale, but again, some of that's just the nature of each of those types of projects. And we really, in terms of our exit strategy are we work with our capital partner to determine you know, what the right strategy is? We aren't a merchant builder on our rental side, so We have some projects that we're under construction on right now that our partner is a long term holder. And so we're gonna, we're excited about that I think that's a great a great complement to our forsale business is to have some long term rental ownership. But we're also opportunistic, and you know, I think the, the cap rate environment we were in a few years ago, it's very hard not to sell. So, you know, I think we definitely want to be opportunistic when the time is right, and it aligns with our capital partners desires.
Nancy Surak25:31
Tell me, you're bringing up the capital partners. Tell me a little bit about like what you're seeing right now. The financial markets have been kind of like crazy for the last, I don't know, maybe 60 days, well, actually, technically, probably last seven months, but really on on a big pause, I would say, at least down here in my market for the last 60 or so days, are you guys seeing that as well? Or do you just have a credibly established capital partner? That's like, no, just keep going?
Kelli Lawrence26:00
No, I think pauses the word of the day on the capital side. All that being said, though, we are we have some projects under construction right now with a great, a great partner, we have we are talking with a number of other groups for opportunities and our 2023 pipeline that we're working on. So I think there are groups looking, you know, we we thankfully, I think because of our history, we have some strong debt relationships. So on the construction lending side, I feel very fortunate that we have some great relationships there. And we have banks that are really ready and willing to kind of work with us on our projects and our pipeline, both for sale and rental. But yeah, it does feel like everyone's been on pause, I'm hopeful maybe, as there's just some stability in the market, I think that's been kind of what everyone's looking for is not necessarily interest rates to go down. But just to know, we're kind of stable, you know, so that we can make some better assumptions about where we're at least going to be for the next 12 months, which felt really hard to do 60, 90 days ago, even. So I think, you know, we're starting to see some leveling out in the housing market, which I think was another kind of let's wait and see what happens. But, you know, we actually had a very strong sales month in December, and I just saw market research provider, we subscribe to who do notice an uptick of sales in December, because we're seeing on that side, I think buyers are saying, well, I'm willing to jump in. And I feel like prices have stabilized. And I still need the home. Right? The the issues of supply and demand that created a lot of the housing market conditions we had are still in effect. And actually, you know, I think permits have trailed off quite substantially in the last six months. So I think those buyers are saying, Well, I think now's the time to buy, I feel comfortable that I can refi into yours, even if the rate today isn't what I like. So, you know, I'm hopeful that the capital providers will will start to free up because there's a lot of money out there that needs to be invested. And so and I think there's a lot of groups looking but I think to your point, pause does seem to be the word of the day.
Nancy Surak28:11
Okay, so so given that challenge, when you look back at your whole career, and what's what have been some of the bigger challenges. I mean, you were in this, when I was in it, I think we probably started somewhere around the same time on the real estate side. So we both lived through the last downturn. I don't think this is that at all. I think just this is just a slight reset, but I welcome it. I was actually hoping for it. Because I was like, we can't keep this pace. It's unsustainable. But when you look back at your career, tell me, you know, where are the challenging peaks? Like, where do you see it? And tell me a little bit about the lessons that you learned through those places?
Kelli Lawrence28:56
Sure. Yeah, no, I agree. And I was actively in the for sale business transitioning into the rental business and kind of that '07 '09 period, and then it kind of full of more fully transitioned by 2010 into the rental development world. But you know, on the on the for sale side, it feels very different than the challenges that we had, then, you know, I think we see that now we have very, at least in our business, a very low cancellation rate. Our buyers are well qualified, they have savings, so maybe they may have to bring more money to closing than they anticipated, but they're still able to, you know, get their financing the lenders have the rigor on the lending side, both commercial and residential was just far different than it was in the last housing cycle. So I think a lot of the problems that we had that created that that's like art, or what we're experiencing today, you know, and I think on the on the capital market side, it really feels like the fundamentals of whatever one you know, obviously we are returned to have to be higher if our debt costs more like the just the overall, underwriting has to change and some deals aren't going to work anymore. And we've had some that have fallen out from our pipeline that we've just said, Hey, this just, it's too thin right now in today's environment, and we're gonna move on and focus on, you know, the the a plus, plus plus projects in our pipeline. But I agree with you, I don't think it feels the same. I think it's just more of the macro factors at play, and less even about the real estate, although real estate makes the headlines because it affects everybody. And I also agree with you that I think part of this reset is healthy, right? Like we're seeing it on our supply chain issues that we were dealing with, and the cost side of our business, things are just getting more normal, more predictable. And that's really healthy for the market overall, and long term. So it's not all bad. I think just it's the rate of the change that has created the shock that we're all feeling, not necessarily the change itself.
Nancy Surak31:03
I would agree with that. 100%. Because the rate, so much of it was what happened in the financial market, and that just significant increase in cost of capital. You know, folks who have been doing this for as long as you and I have or longer, they're like, they slammed on the brakes. They're like, whoa, whoa, like, because we, you know, people were young people would ask me, like, what, what was it like, in '08 and I was like, what this wasn't, this isn't what it was like? And they'll say, Well, what do you think's gonna happen? And I'm like, I don't think anybody's ever seen this before. This hasn't happened. But I'm like, Just save your money. Just keep your head down, work hard, you know, pick the right projects, make sure your underwriting is is on par and you know, what you're doing and don't make crazy, risky decisions. And you should be okay.
Kelli Lawrence31:54
You know, yeah, I mean, I still again, in this is comparing the for sale side. But, you know, we were in I was in a business in a way. And we had most everyone was doing zero to 3% down. And so we had a ton of buyers and no longer could qualify and didn't have the savings. And there were a lot more Investor Buyers, that were very high leverage a lot more supply that had to be absorbed in the market. You know, we're just in I think, some of it having to build to rent, and the demand for rental housing from both a lifestyle and affordability standpoint, you know, having that great need out there, I think does help the overall housing market picture as well. And that really wasn't, you know, renting townhomes and single family homes wasn't wasn't really happening. at any scale, you know, back in the in the last cycle. And again, there just isn't even the the inventory right now. You know, aside from pockets, there are definitely, you know, there are definitely pockets of, of inventory issues. But but on a on the types of the types of locations, we build both suburban and urban, we're still seeing very tight markets.
Nancy Surak33:07
Yeah, I would say like the market, the two projects that I mentioned, when we first started here, those are really expensive, very tight markets, you know, the ones that I'm familiar with, it's like, wow, you know, and the land price is exceptionally high. But it's also a very in demand location, you know, where it's where people are going to be willing, whoever your future tenant or buyer is, they're going to be willing to pay the price because that neighborhood is, is so not only demand but desired. You know, like, exactly if people want to be there.
Kelli Lawrence33:42
There's not going to be another I mean, those those types of locations are very hard to build in. And so there isn't going to be in six months, if you decide to wait another community popping up the you can decide to make that decision if you want to be in these neighborhoods, you know, now's the time and right now in the projects in Tampa that you reference, we're really building out all sold inventory. We really don't have anything, everything we're selling now is going to be delivered. Late summer fall, is our first kind of inventory to buy for that reason. And we're in that's why we're very focused in we still believe in the for sale business. We think there's a lot of opportunity there. But you have to be very focused on those types of locations.
Nancy Surak34:26
And knowing what people are looking for. So you building the right product, right? So I want to take a little bit of a shift, Kelli, because I know you're talking a lot about what your company is doing. I want to go back a little bit to your career growth and how you made decisions to do different things. Talk to me a little bit about when opportunities came to you talked a little bit in the beginning about how you know you were reflecting on your career and the opportunity for the CEO position opened and it was just a great time. Want to maybe take could step back earlier in your career? How did you figure out? Where to raise your hand? And how to say yes to different opportunities?
Kelli Lawrence35:09
Sure, well, I think, you know, the going, the how to raise my hand goes back to even my days as a city planner and saying, like, I want to work on that. And then I think, you know, in when I joined the real estate company, as we were being formed, a lot of what I did was like, I didn't really didn't know, I knew urban planning, right. But I really didn't know construction. I didn't know, finance, I didn't know. And it was really immersing myself in it going to those that were experts and saying, Can you teach me this going to job sites and walking with our superintendent and saying, Can you explain? What are you looking at? What do you see? Because I don't know, construction? So explain to me, you know, what, what were what you're looking at. So I think a lot of it is through my career, because I did spend a large number of years with kind of the same group, although we evolved, we had roofing companies, we had different construction divisions, you know, over the course of time, especially through the downturn, as we were looking for other other opportunities to generate income, you know, when we weren't doing as many deals. It was really just having that. thirst for knowledge and understanding and by I am by no means an expert in construction, but I know quite a lot now. You know, I am not the financial expert on our team. But I know a lot. So, you know, I think it's that making sure that you're you're talking to the experts around you, you know, even though it's not in your company, so talking with spent a lot of time with architects I really admired it's like how, when you're designing this, what are you looking at? What, what should we be looking at, you know, and attorneys, you know, help me understand everything in my contract, what does this? Why is this important? What do you think are the five most important things that that we should all know, things of that nature? So I think that's a lot of kind of how I got where I am and how I continue to grow in my career was that continual learning about the broad, ask, you know, the, the breadth of real estate development and everything and all aspects of what we do
Nancy Surak37:14
Now that that's a great answer. And I love the fact that you said, you know, you talk to really pick the brains of the folks that are working around you. You know, I mean, I've been doing this for a broker for 18 years. And I called an attorney yesterday that I have like three deals going on. And because I have a new issue that I haven't encountered before, and I think I know the right answer, right, based on my experience, but I called him up and I'm like, I need 10 minutes, I need to bounce this off of somebody else from a legal perspective, because this is a pretty big impact to my client. And I just want to make sure that I'm giving them proper guidance. And it was great. You know, he was he spent time with me, we dissected the problem. And he said, No, you're right on, you're right on target, like, trust yourself, you're good is the this is the advice I would give them as well. And so it was nice.
Kelli Lawrence38:04
Yeah. And I think one of the things that I've learned this, you know, as I get older, is it oftentimes you I was I was asking, I was trying to learn from people who reported to me, and I think that's an important thing, especially for women to be okay, being vulnerable. And, and I think as any for any leader really is to recognize the expertise on your team, and elevate, elevate that expertise and learn from your team. I mean, I want to be surrounded by the best people, I can be surrounded with people that have far more knowledge in the areas we need for our business than I do. And, you know, I think that's an important thing to be comfortable with. And I can't say I was always there in my career, but it definitely where I am today, I you know, I want everyone on my team to be to teach me something every day.
Nancy Surak38:50
That's a great, great point. And a great segue into the last few series of questions that I always ask. And you've you've kind of answered the first question several different ways, but I'm still going to ask it, see if you can come up with anything else. I'm going to try to ask it a little bit of a different way than I normally do. So normally, I say if a young woman were to call you and say I want to get into development, what's a piece of advice you would have for me? You sort of answered that already. What I think I'm going to do differently this time is what would you tell 24 year old Kelli, about how she should manage her career going forward?
Kelli Lawrence39:27
I think it's probably what I hit on just recently, like be vulnerable. Be okay saying you don't know and you and not just with publicly just to say I don't understand this, I want to know more and also being willing to stick your neck out. I think it took me a while in my career, especially as I was working with some very seasoned real estate executives, to kind of have to be willing to raise my hand and say Hey, I don't think we should do this deal, or I really think we should, or I think we're missing something. And so taking that risk of being wrong, and not being the expert, but being willing to stick your neck out, I, I wish I would have done that sooner in my career. But it's something I've learned, you know, over the years. So and then the other thing is just now, we didn't really talk about this. But another very important part of my career was networking. And building building that network getting involved taking leadership roles, I was very involved with the Urban Land Institute, still am, and some other you know, trade groups and also just local civic groups and volunteering, I think those are great ways, not only to build your overall network of both personal and professional confidence, but also just to develop leadership skills. So in the in that aspect of what I do is still was huge for my career growth, and also is just really important to me, personally, has helped me personally, you know, given the different cycles we deal with in real estate and the challenges of, you know, balancing everything, so I would highly, you know, encourage young women to seek out those networks.
Nancy Surak41:12
That's, that's really awesome advice, too, because I've said that all always as well, like, you have to, you know, have friends in the business, you have to network, you have to be willing to pick up the phone and call people. You have to be okay asking the question that you're not hearing in the room, but that is just eating you up as you're sitting at the table. Like, why isn't anybody asking this question? Just ask the question. And if you get a side eye, you get a side eye and like it's okay. It's okay. Because chances are there's somebody else in the room that is thinking the same thing. You just have to be brave.
Kelli Lawrence41:45
I completely agree. Yeah, that'd be brave. And that's probably a better way of saying what I what I started with, is, you know, the concept of being brave. And I think, especially as women in the industry where you're often not in a room with other women, you know, it's having that bravery is is important, and doing it early.
Nancy Surak42:04
Yeah. Cuz I talked about my daughter a lot on the show, she's 21. And the other day, something came up and I said, What's the worst that can happen? Like, just go like, go and do it? If you fail? Who cares, at least you can check the box off that you tried. Or that you raised your hand like, it's okay, it's okay. Like, you're not going to? Well, we hope you aren't gonna die over failure. But at least you know, you've answered that question for yourself. So, okay, great. So the next question I have for you is, is there a book or a podcast or a series of content that you consume or have consumed at any point in your career that you find particularly inspirational or educational, that's helped you in your career or in your business that you'd like to share here today?
Kelli Lawrence42:51
You know, I recently over the holidays, I picked up again, the book Good to Great by Jim Collins. And, you know, I think I'm really inspired by it as I'm going in 2023. And thinking about all of just the uncertainty in the world. And, you know, I think that, especially in real estate, it's been really easy in the industry, environment, the economy, we've been in to be a great real estate company, right, without perhaps missing some of the fundamentals. And I really think we're moving into a different part of the world and for all businesses, where we really have to be disciplined and focused, and know what we're doing, what our strategy is why we're doing it, make sure our team with the right people in the right seats, to execute at a very high level. And so I, I just have been just reread that book. And that's kind of mop of Mind, I think, especially with kind of the market challenges that we're facing. So that'd be my pick.
Nancy Surak43:49
Awesome. And then finally, how can folks who are here today, continue to follow me or are you active on LinkedIn? Do you? Or do you guys have a company or Instagram that you could share so that people can just sort of follow what you're doing with your company and maybe some of the projects that you're working on?
Kelli Lawrence44:06
Sure. So we have a really awesome social media platform, everything is OnyxandEast spelled out. We have a TIk Tok channel. So we do some really cool walk throughs. And so and I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, and I'm responsive on LinkedIn. And you know, I do try to, again, be responsive to those that reach out to me on LinkedIn to talk more.
Nancy Surak44:32
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your your personal story throughout your career growth, as well as your company's story. I'm excited to see what's next for you guys. And I'm so glad that we were able to meet back in Jacksonville last summer, and then I wish you all the best in your career. Thank youfor thank you so
Kelli Lawrence44:50
Thank you so much, Nancy.
Nancy Surak44:52
You bet. Thank you for joining us for another episode of She's Wild the podcast for women in land and development. If you enjoyed today's show, please go out and rate us so that we can be found by other women in our industry. And if you know women who are working in land and development, please share this podcast with them. And if you know a total rock star woman, badass chick who is killing it in land and development anywhere in North America. I want to know who she is. Please reach out to me so that I can feature her on an upcoming episode.