In this episode of She's Wild, host Nancy Surak sits down with Emily Franklin and Natalia Goldenberg, two up-and-coming developers at DeBartolo Development in Tampa, Florida. Emily and Natalia share their educational backgrounds and career paths that led them to real estate development. They provide insights into their day-to-day work developing projects from acquisition to construction. The guests also offer advice for younger women looking to enter the industry, emphasizing the importance of mentorship, education, grit, and trusting your instincts.
In this episode of She's Wild, host Nancy Surak sits down with Emily Franklin and Natalia Goldenberg, two up-and-coming developers at DeBartolo Development in Tampa, Florida. Emily and Natalia share their educational backgrounds and career paths that led them to real estate development. They provide insights into their day-to-day work developing projects from acquisition and underwriting to construction and lease-up.
They discuss the challenges and rewards of juggling multiple projects simultaneously and emphasize the importance of problem-solving skills, creativity, and perseverance in overcoming obstacles. They also offer words of encouragement for younger women, stressing the value of mentorship relationships and having confidence in one's own abilities.
They also discuss bringing top female executives to Tampa to educate local women professionals. This inspiring conversation provides a glimpse into the promising futures of these dynamic real estate professionals, while imparting wisdom that will benefit women across the commercial real estate industry.
Connect with Nancy:
Instagram: https://instagram.com/nancysurak
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancysurak
Website: http://www.nancysurak.com
Connect with Emily:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-franklin-45a1a1b0/
Emily book recommendation: Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss via Amazon https://a.co/d/4DBchcO
Connect with Natalia:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliagoldenberg/
Natalia's book recommendation: The Obstacle Is The Way By Ryan Holiday via Amazon https://a.co/d/9Ahldzr
She’s Wild Sound Production by: Luke Surak, Surak Productions: surakproductions@gmail.com
Nancy Surak 03:32
Hello, welcome back to She's Wild the Podcast for Women in Land and Development. Today I have not only one amazing guest, but to please allow me to introduce Emily Franklin and Natalia Goldenberg, both on the development team with DeBartolo Development here in Tampa, Florida. Ladies, welcome to She's Wild.
Natalia Goldenberg 03:56
Thanks, Nancy. We're excited to be here.
Nancy Surak 03:58
Yeah, I'm super excited. I'd love for everyone to get to know you guys individually a little bit better. If you could each introduce yourselves. Tell us a little bit more about who you are. Maybe how you got to this point in your career. That would be awesome. Emily, I'm gonna go ahead and let you go first. And then Natalia can take it from there.
Emily Franlkin 04:17
So I want to raise Orlando went to UCF real estate school got hired out of the UCF real estate school by Trevor Hall at Colliers so as a land broker for about three years over there absolutely loved it. But it kind of got to a point where I'd sold a couple pieces of land to developers, and really wanted to see the other side of the equation. And so me made the decision during COVID to go to the development side, big leap, and also at the same time applied for a master's program real estate development and investment at Georgetown. And so just the academic understanding and you know, on the job training between, you know, being at DeBartolo, which is where I went next, and the academic side, Georgetown the two really helped build that foundation of you know, What I've built over the last few years and brought me now to, you know, three years into development. And, you know, that's the that's kind of my, my history. Awesome.
Nancy Surak 05:11
Awesome, how about you, Natalia.
Natalia Goldenberg 05:13
So it's funny, I am also from Orlando, but we didn't know each other until we started here at DeBartolo. But I actually ended up going across the country for school. So I did my undergrad at USC. And I had no exposure to real estate before. So I have been in healthcare been in retail, I lived abroad for a while. And when I came back, I was looking for a new career path. And that's how I got into real estate. I started with a developer in Orlando and had an opportunity to come out here, Tampa up to Tampa and work at the Bartlett development. And so I've been doing that for the last four years, two years in Tampa and two years in Orlando.
Nancy Surak 05:58
Awesome. So I noticed how you said I didn't have a history in real estate. Emily, did you grow up in a real estate family or have any exposure as a younger woman?
Emily Franlkin 06:08
No, I never did. It's actually kind of funny. Like it was when I started in real estate, oh my family, like still thinks I sell homes. So like, I mean, that just goes to say that, you know, no one in my family had any exposure to commercial real estate. So it was really just me finding it in college, like 60 second story, I studied finance, because my mom's in finance. And, you know, I was like, I'll find something that I'll like from here, you know, when I graduate. And then I got to my fourth year, and took real estate development, which I thought was going to be a, you know, relatively easy elective was not. And my professor came up to me at the end of that course, and was like, Okay, you said front, middle, this is a 6pm to nine 9pm class on a Monday, Monday evening, and you're, you're clearly in love with this, like, you have to take the second version of this class. And so that was the UCF Neha case study competition. And so I ended up taking that class next, and just fell way further in love with real estate development through that, but that professor was Richard Van Slyke former developer at SeaWorld actually, very influential guy on my life, and really helped me find that real estate was my calling from, you know, just one random elective that I took in college.
Nancy Surak 07:18
That's awesome. I will tell you, my family, I think after almost 20 years of doing this, I think they finally understand after a long time, I was like, the real estate, like speed dial expert, you know, in the family, like if somebody was looking at a lease, or they wanted to sell their house, and they had, you know, potential real estate question. Even now, I'm like, that's not what I do. I mean, I can look at it, I have some of those that skill set that knowledge, you know, and I know what I'm reading, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I can talk about value, because I study that from a data perspective. But I'm like, I don't know the ins and outs of that specific area. So, so funny that we have that in common. And I think it's really, really awesome that you pointed out that somebody in the academic world said, Hey, this appears to be something that lights you up. That's awesome. I never had that. So kudos to you. Natalia for you. I mean, you said you have a background kind of all over the place. Did you just sort of stumble into real estate? And you're like, Oh, this is cool. Like, tell me a little bit more about how you really ended up in that first role.
Natalia Goldenberg 08:32
Oh, it was a little more introspective than when I had been living in Israel for the last few years. And I had moved back to Orlando. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And at this point, you know, I had a master's degree and an MBA in general business and finance. And I did not want to just get a job in office and you know, work at someplace that I didn't like. So I took some time to actually think about, you know, what do I like, and what am I good at? And I realized I'm very good at operations. And I'm really good at managing a lot of things at the same time. So I'm a little bit of a research path and tried to figure out, you know, what kind of careers can you do that kind of work in? And I found a book called How Real Estate Developers Think. And I read that book. And I realized, well, this is entrepreneurial, it's innovative, it's creative. It's one giant project management. I think I want to do this. So then it was how do I set out and become a developer with no experience and a master's degree? Because that oftentimes works against you when you don't have any experience you want to get into the field. So I started researching online development companies in Orlando, and I found a post for a job at a company there and it was actually an erroneous post. They were no longer hiring, but I said to myself, look, I'm gonna work here and I'm not gonna let them take no for an answer. So I applied, I didn't get any response back. I decided to go to the office and show up and say, hey, you know, Hey, is anybody here? Can I talk to them? Here's my resume. Nobody would talk to me. A few weeks later, I said, You know what I'm gonna try one more time. So I took my resume, I got a pack of instant coffee. And I wrote off top of my resume, let's get coffee. And I gave it to the receptionist. And I said, please give this to the hiring manager. An hour later, I got a call from President and had an interview a week later. And I start from there. And I just just start at the bottom and, but doing anything and everything I could do on projects and getting exposure to everything. And and that's kind of how I got into it.
Nancy Surak 10:42
I absolutely love that story. Because it shows just a peek of the tenacity that's required to be successful in our world, right? Yeah. To say, like, I want this. And I just have to figure out a different way.
Natalia Goldenberg 10:56
Exactly. Yeah, I think that's really important. And it's something that we both feel and do everyday in our jobs. You definitely need to have that tenacity and grit to get through through commercial real estate and creativity.
Nancy Surak 11:09
Yeah, and I think as women, you know, I'm super, I'm super pumped one to have young women on the show right now like to have you guys here to say, like, we think this is important to, to share our stories, is very, very meaningful to me. But I think we have barriers that are completely invisible in our industry, you can't see them. And so we have to work a little bit harder, we have to be a lot smarter, a much better prepared than a lot of our male colleagues. And not that's not a slap to them. I never male bass on the show. It's just a fact. Or at least it's been in my personal career, I have to know the facts walking in the door, because I don't want someone to say Oh, well, she was just a dumb blonde, no, ever, that's never acceptable. So I really, really love the fact that you guys are here. And you're saying, Hey, we're being creative. And we have great educations. And we are going to go after the things we want. You know, I want to take just a pause. Both of you guys mentioned education right out of the chute. How important it was the folks that instilled something in you as your professor, Emily, but also the fact that you continued on both mentioned, I have an MBA and oh, I'm working on my masters. So I'd like to just sort of talk about why you think that's important for you as a professional.
Emily Franlkin 12:36
So it took me a while to decide, am I going to do a master's degree because back before, you know, I was at land broker. And as a broker I didn't as especially as like a land broker, I didn't necessarily feel that I needed a master's degree, it was when I decided to go into the development side that I really wanted the understanding of the capital markets of lending and debt and equity, all that. And that's really what inspired that in me and wanting to go and get one. And then it was the conversation of is it an MBA is that an MSRE. And then you know, what program is going to be best for me, because there's kind of three types are like MBA MSRE. Or then then there's like an MBA that's specifically for real estate. And so I ultimately decided to do the MSRE program where it was more just elevated understanding of what you get in undergrad, just a more technical level, and then you rub shoulders with other people and you that are going to, you know, kind of growing in the industry together and all three. And so I just made that decision. Personally, for me, the MSRE made the most sense and just kind of elevating that real estate, understanding for development and investment. But Natalia did an MBA. I'll let you go.
Natalia Goldenberg 13:44
So I decided to do a master's for much of what you were just talking about. It gives you another level of credibility, and I want to be able to compete at the highest levels of anybody in this industry, whether it's male, female, whoever. And I knew that I always wanted that, what I didn't realize what would be the most important thing of getting a masters is your network and who you meet there. And then you know, where they go after. And I think even more so than undergrad when you have that network from your master's degree, it really helps in your professional career. And I would say that those were the two major reasons why I got it and then I would encourage, you know, other people, other women to go out and pursue that higher education.
Nancy Surak 14:32
Yeah, I have a master's myself, but it's not real estate related. I got it when I was much younger. But I also went back once like Emily, you know, once you're a land broker, like they're, these terms get thrown around, and you know, folks are talking about their pro forma and waterfalls and it's like, if you don't have at least a decent foundational level of knowledge it's really hard to communicate error has been for me earlier in my career. It was hard for me to communicate with And owner, what those things really met in terms of valuation, why it made a difference for them. And so for me, I didn't go back to the university, I went and got my CCIM. Because I it was, so it's a little bit different, it was a much more compressed. But I also did it when I had like two kids under the age of like, five, I think so that was all I could give, you know, was like, like, alright, I'm going to disappear for a week or four days, go get this education, and it was not easy. And I had a master's degree, I was like, holy cow, this is like not easy work. But for me, you know, it worked. So I kudos to both of you guys. I would love to get into what a typical day looks like for each of you guys, when you're when you go into work, whether you're looking at a deal, or you're managing the development process, what is a everyday typical pick a day out of the year, what is described that to me
Emily Franlkin 15:57
It's different every single day. You know, I mean, like I'm telling you and I we're not we're not siloed at all, like we are a part of every part of the deal from finding new opportunities, underwriting those into permitting, entitlements, and then design, closing the capital stack and you know, financing and then overseeing construction, working with interior designers and then into lease up and dispossession. So like from the minute use that you identify a piece of land to when you sell it, we are part of all of it. And so, you know, we're just doing anything like today, I worked on an environmental study, looking at the different types of metals that we found in, you know, the water samples that we got, you know, earlier today, it was just an underwriting a couple of new opportunities that we're looking at, like an office build a low vacancy office building, that we're looking at converting to multifamily, and then also another piece of land, here in the Northeast, and you know, just a total, it's totally dependent on the day, and it could be any part of one of those sectors of you know, what we're involved in?
Natalia Goldenberg 17:01
Yeah, I would say that you you come in, you have your to do list and you want to get certain things done. But as you're working, things come up, fires come up a problem surfaces, and then you have to, you know, take time and go through that. So, it really does keep your day interesting. Things change as you go through your project as you're going through underwriting. So while you have this whole general idea of okay, I need to find a piece of land today or I need to find a new project or, you know, I need to move my project along on the schedule, you just never know what's actually going to come up in the day. So it really just does change day to day and keeps things interesting. And and like I said, you know, you're spending about 100 plates at the same time trying not to drop anything. So keeps things interesting.
Nancy Surak 17:56
Yeah, I would agree with that. Even on the brokerage side. You know, I go in and I have my like to do list. And somedays, I get to, you know, 530 or six that I look at my to do list that I'm like, Oh, I got one thing done. Exactly. What was like crazy busy, and I'm like, What did I do with my day? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, like this fire happened. And now I had to talk this owner off the ledge, you know, we had to renegotiate that loi for the 18th time or whatever, you know.
Natalia Goldenberg 18:26
It can get ugly.
Nancy Surak 18:28
Yeah So when you talk about juggling all these plates, Natalia, what's your favorite part of the business? Like in a deal lifecycle? What do you love?
Natalia Goldenberg 18:41
That's a good question. There's parts I love about the entire process. I actually really love looking at a piece of land or project and underwriting it. And to see how the numbers work. It's interesting to see what works, what doesn't, why doesn't it work. So I love doing that. I also love when we are in pre development, and we're going through the design part. Getting to lay out the floor plans picking out the interior design, I find that pretty, pretty fun. And interestingly, I also really enjoy the construction side. So if you had told me in college, hey, maybe you shouldn't be majoring in construction management, I would have said you're crazy because there's no way I like construction. Not interested in one bit. Nope. But now I'm like, This is so cool. Seeing this building come alive. Every day I get progress photos, or when we go out go out on site. I'm like, wow, I labored over this for two years and and now it's it's happening so so yeah, it's several things throughout the deal, but throughout the project, but I think those would be my favorite.
Nancy Surak 19:48
How about you Emily?
Emily Franlkin 19:50
It's funny, like exactly what you just said. I love that underwriting science. It's such an awesome combination of understanding the finance side, which I love, but Also the creativity of putting a deal together is so interesting because there's a million ways to kill a deal. But there's also a million ways to make it work and understanding, you know, what your assumptions are and kind of what your whatever firm you're with, thing, avenues that they can take to make a deal work, because it's just fascinating to kind of see how you can put all these different deals together and finance it differently. And, you know, just tangibly put the actual physical deal together, but also the, you know, runs cash flow, all that it's just, it's fascinating. And then I just love, I personally love the interior design behind it, it's just so much fun to you know, have this beautiful budget, and be able to put some things together, that's really cool. That you know, that your residents are going to love and enjoy.
Nancy Surak 20:47
Yeah, that that's really awesome. I have now I'm smiling from literally from ear to ear, and I'm only on the very, very front end, but listening to you guys talk about it, I can just see and hear your passion of how much you love every single part of what you do, which is really, really awesome. Because everybody has a different answer. You know, on that, like, Well, I really love this part. And, and I really love the land side, right. Obviously, that's why I'm in that lane. But to hear you guys say, you know, I really love the numbers. And I really love the interior design. I'm like, oh, that would be really cool. That would be nice to have like a huge budget to be like to go and redo it just have a blank canvas. I mean, I'm, you know, thinking about like, that would be awesome. But then I would come home and I wouldn't be sad.
Natalia Goldenberg 21:35
So when did we get to do this for our own house.
Emily Franlkin 21:37
We send inspirations to each other, like, never be able to afford this in our house. But we can in this project.
Nancy Surak 21:44
My house is I've had the same living room or family room for a while. And it would pain me to be looking at all the new cool trends. Because if I had to come home to the same thing that I've had for the last like five years, I'd be like, I want to redo that. But it's you can live vicariously through those experiences of, so tell me if you could speak either of you, or both of you could speak to a younger version of yourself. Senior in high school, freshman in college, what would you tell her about this business to really entice her to move into this direction, sooner or faster.
Emily Franlkin 22:33
I would tell my younger self, how this industry for me personally, it's every everything that I ended up individual traits in myself that I thought I was good at. It's a combination of all those in one career, which is something that I realized in that class at the end of college I told you about love the finance side, but I am artistic to the point where my parents thought I was gonna be an artist. And just the creativity of that I didn't think I was gonna be able to find a career where I could kind of put both together. And it was it's it's been such a beautiful combination of the two traits in me that just things that I was good at, that I have been able to embody in in this career that I found. And so that's what I would kind of tell my younger self, maybe like freshman years, you know, major in this earlier.
Natalia Goldenberg 23:26
I think I shied away in college from things like taking more finance classes or more technical classes, because I didn't really think that I was good at that. Ironically, that's some of my strengths. And I wish I had known that sooner. I wish I had been more confident in myself sooner. To to do that to take those classes to go down that path. I didn't I didn't even know there was a such thing as a commercial real estate major. I found out years later that they actually did have that at my school. And I wish I had known. But I don't think I would have ever thought like oh, that like I could do that. That's for me because I just I just didn't think I could. And now that I'm in this industry, and I'm doing everything I realized I'm definitely competent enough. And I wish I had felt that way when I was younger. And I think I think a lot of younger women need to remind themselves of that.
Emily Franlkin 24:25
Older people's perception of you does not define your intelligence, your ability and your potential. Yeah, it was very it that took me a while to learn. You know, I didn't because I was I really admired a lot of people that were older than me that have done a lot of amazing, impactful work in the real estate development world that I just really respected. And there were some people that just because of preconceived notions or whatever it was, were unkind or demeaning or dismissive. Just all the oldest thing is, and I think when you're 22, coming out of college or whatever, it's easy to let those people paint your sense of self in some ways. And I think that's something that I would tell myself to try to avoid and persevere through that cloud of judgment that the world inevitably puts on young women in any industry.
Nancy Surak 25:21
Yeah, that has, I mean, just such meaningful advice, Emily, let me just share with you like I am watching my 22 year old daughter go through right now like picking the company where she will start her career. And being able to guide her through that has been really rewarding for me as a mother, but it's exceptionally rewarding to me as a professional woman, to be able to say, like, well, these are the things that you might want to be considering. Not that we are different people, you may have different needs at once. But look at, you know, these sorts of questions, because eventually it becomes about these sorts of things, you know, maybe not at 22. But it's important to know like, what is that company culture like, right? And is there going to be somebody on the team that is exactly what you said, going to be demeaning, or rude or like, life is hard enough on the outside, we don't need that as well. So I really, really appreciate that you share that because I came from such a meaningful place of, you know, be able to persevere through that, get through it, and know that everything's gonna be okay. And I would also add it also. You know, at my age, I'm like, Oh, I'm a little crusty sometimes. But I think it also does layer a little bit of you need some of that, not necessarily roughness, but toughness, right to get through when things go wrong, because things do go wrong, especially on deals that you guys are working on. Right? Yeah, inevitably, there's going to be a problem in the lifecycle of a deal. And you have to have some toughness to be able to figure out how to solve whatever that problem is. So
Natalia Goldenberg 27:06
You definitely need to have a little bit of grit to get to get through the ups and downs. So yeah.
Nancy Surak 27:11
Yep, I would agree. So one thing I know, when I originally met, you guys are really got to know you guys a little bit better was when you hosted an event several times. That was that last year, and this year covers all the this year. But anyways, you guys at your company hosted an event called Women and commercial real estate. There was a summit luncheon, it was sort of a lunch and learn really well, incredibly, well done. What you guys did tell me how that come about. And I mean, you guys were in the front of the room, you're running it, which is amazing to watch. And it is, from my perspective of someone's been in the business for 20 years, to look around a room and have 30 or 40 other professional women in my market in that room be educated. Phenomenal, like hats off to you. But I want you guys to tell me the story of how that came about and what your roles have been respectfully in making that happen.
Emily Franlkin 28:07
Sure. This was the brainchild of Ed Kobel, our boss. You know, he really had the idea to hold host a Women and Real Estate Summit here in town, and, you know, invite women who were inspiring and could, you know, speak at a very high level on certain whatever topic we had chosen. And so, kind of pause there and just appreciate his wanting to have us do that invest in us in by putting us in front of, you know, this group of very educated, impactful women movers and shakers in Tampa. And, you know, host this summit, which has been a phenomenal opportunity for both of us, you know, just exposure being newish to the Tampa area and commercial real estate space. And, you know, the idea really was just to just do that, you know, fly in one woman who we felt could be an impactful speaker. We originally had Robin Potts with Canyon Partners fly out from LA and she was our inaugural speaker. And she was phenomenal, Harvard educated woman and very personable and really enjoyed having her speak with us. And then second, we had Amy Johannes with Oak Tree out of New York City just as badass as they come. So she was a phenomenal speaker as well.
Natalia Goldenberg 29:24
And I just want to take a minute and I think Emily's really under estimating herself and and what we did. So this really was Ed's idea. But we put together the guest list. We found these women these movers and shakers, and we we ran with the idea of what would we want to learn? And what Where's there a gap for women in this industry. But that was that's really the basis for this this summit is that we really wanted to fill this gap for women. Because I know sometimes we're a little less likely to ask ask or seek out this. And yeah, so we had these two women. And we had two different topics. The first one, like you said, was more on the economy, capital markets in general, how that affects commercial real estate. And then we really wanted to dive into the finance because for the two of us, that's been something that we've really, really enjoyed. And I know you said that you majored in finance. But for me, it's been sort of something that I realized that I didn't know I liked until I started doing it. And we created this whole understanding capital stack, which, if you're a broker, or broker, or if you're a land use attorney, or if you're a civil engineer, you may not know the ins and outs of that, and being a developer, and you see that every day. So yeah, so so we really use that as our second platform. And, and it's really a way to educate women and put us all together in this room. And in a place where we're supporting each other, and also with men, too, that are supporting us and wanting to see our success just as much.
Nancy Surak 31:03
I love the fact that you guys nodded to Ed, right, like, hey, it was his idea. But without you guys's ability to take it and run and do the outreach, and be the women at the front of the room, I'm not sure if the impact would have been the same. I think the fact that it was two young women saying to your friends in the industry, hey, come and have lunch with us and spend a couple of hours learning about the capital stack. Is why it works.
Emily Franlkin 31:35
It's funny you say that, because Ed did have the original idea. But then the week before the actual first event, we were in the conference room like practicing and practicing, and you know, like, do it putting all this time in. Staying late, you know, we're really making sure that it was an articulate well done program. And you can see him walking by like confused, like, there's a glass, you know, like past the glass, like, what are they doing here? Silly? Like, why are they putting so much work into them? We're working to this. And I don't think he realized how much work like really would have needed to go into the program that we put together because we're like, if we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it right. And like really put a good name out there for DeBartolo and for ourselves. And so it was it was just funny to see his reaction to like, the amount of work that we put in there, like the couple days leading up to it. Yeah, it's, it's really, it was really remarkable. So kudos again, you know, like, congratulations, I still run into folks. And it'll come up sometimes in passing. And I think that's the biggest benefit, right? Like you said, both for the company and for you guys, you know, individually as professionals coming up in the industry to know that your name, and the company's name has been mentioned in conversations where you're not physically present in such a positive way, is really the the most wonderful investment anybody could have provided to each of you, and then you could have done for yourselves, you know, it will pay dividends forever, which is awesome.
Natalia Goldenberg 33:04
Yeah, I don't think we realize that I've been told
Nancy Surak 33:10
As someone who is much further along in their career, you know, I'm, I'm over 50. I've been doing this, again, like I said, for almost two decades. What can my generation do? female male whatever in the business, like what can us more seasoned folks in real estate do to help you guys and the next generation coming in, to continue to be successful and to reach like, your professional goals?
Emily Franlkin
I think mentorship. I will yell from the mountaintops how important mentorship is, and you know, there's many different kinds, you know, whether that's working with them, or, you know, finding someone in a networking group that you work in that, you know, you just see a young woman who's coming in, she has a lot of potential, but you know, just having someone that is, you know, many decades your senior adviser you through your career making career decisions, just really is I can't overstate the impact on that. You know, I like I personally have a mentor, Amy McCook, in Orlando, who is a developer and she is she is a woman. I think that in her 40s That's really been impactful to me throughout their career. And I think women like you and Amy of having those mentees is just really an amazing, tangible way to give back and advise and that way.
Natalia Goldenberg 34:32
I think mentors are great, but if you don't feel like you have the time to do that. I think another great way is to invite these young people in your organization to sit in with you when you have conversations to sit in, in meetings, even if they aren't able to add value, allowing them to sit there and learn how to handle difficult conversation. What are the things you talk about? What's the next step of the deal? Is is invaluable? And I will say that Ed does that a lot. He invites us in. And we get to listen to what he talks about who he's speaking with. Other meetings that I've been able to sit in, it really helps put the pieces together. So I think that's another great way that that you can help.
Emily Franlkin 35:17
Yeah. Piggybacking off of that, earlier in my career, I had a couple older mentors invite me to county commission meetings, you know, I'd never been to one before. I didn't know like, I didn't know the structure of them. What happens. I had no idea. So just tagging along, just sitting listening. How does this work? How do they negate this? When they speak? How do they speak? What do they say? You know, when when there's opposition, what do you do that kind of thing and just you coming along to those meetings, planning and zoning meetings, just even if it's not there deal, saying like this. It's invaluable, like those phone conversations, but also in those in person ones with city staff, things like that. Invaluable, tangible mentorship that you can give them.
Nancy Surak 35:57
Yeah, that's great, great. Tips. I'm really appreciative that you guys needed for that. That's not a question I normally ask. But I think it's really important whenever I have somebody who is closer to the beginning of their career than they are the end of their career on to like, tell us because I had great male mentorship. But I didn't have really a female that was further along in her career that I could be like, oh, my God, I just dealt with those, like, what should I do and, and unfortunately, I think some women that were much older than me, it wasn't they the impression that I had, and this might not be true, but it was just how I felt was that I had to figure it out for myself, because they had to figure it out for themselves. And one of the things are pieces of baggage I carry with me in my career is I will never do that to another woman. I will sponsor women in rooms that they're not in, I will brag on them if I see something good in rooms that they're not in and conversations that they may never be a part of. Because I don't know if I had that.
Emily Franlkin 37:05
It's very impactful and special mentality to have that every woman should have, I think, yeah, and
Nancy Surak 37:11
And I pass it on to like I say to the women, for boardrooms that I pulled them in on, I'm like, you need to pay this forward as well. Like, I'm paying this forward. And I'm like, it doesn't mean you have to be the best, the best of the best to be in the room. But don't let me down and just bring somebody else in, you know, pay this forward. Because that's how we make meaningful change over time. And that's why I created one of the reasons I created the show, I want to see change. But I also want to make sure that folks can see that this is a great industry, even if it is still heavily male dominated. There's some kick ass women like you guys in it. With that, I'll transition and just ask you each What do you think the most important lesson so far in your career, but you've learned what's been a lesson that you have had to work through, that you will take forward forever.
Emily Franlkin 38:12
Trust your gut, on who someone is. Period. If you feel like someone is going to wrong, you if you feel that you're just getting bad vibes, so to speak, trust your gut, because 9 times out of 10 You're right.
Nancy Surak 38:36
Wow. You're so smart.
Emily Franlkin 38:42
Feeling's mutual.
Natalia Goldenberg 38:47
For me, I I think is learning to trust yourself. And I always thought that you had to wait for permission to do things to get to the next level. But what I have learned is that you don't need to ask for permission the you don't need to wait for that permission, just start performing and acting in the next level or where you want to go. And that has brought the most meaningful change to me and impactful change and I've seen seen it unfold in real time. And it's been a very surprising tactic. So don't sit and wait and don't wait for that approval. Just if you feel ready, or you want something, push yourself and take it because nobody's, nobody's going to give it to you unless you unless you advocate for yourself.
Nancy Surak 39:44
Fantastic, man. Why didn't I meet you guys like 20 years ago? Now it's really I mean, I'm like girl crushing honestly, like I'm just like, oh, wow, like I've had those things right. Like I've always been like app, I'll go, you know, I'll raise my hand, I'm not afraid. But knowing that you guys are saying the same messages to yourself is like, yes, like, yell, your careers are gonna be amazing. And in 30 years, I'll be like, look at what they did. And look how smart Ed was for hiring them.
Natalia Goldenberg 40:22
Thank you.
Nancy Surak 40:24
Okay, so I know. I mean, I really loved talking with you guys. I love to ask all my guests, if there is a inspirational book, or a podcast that they've listened to recently, or in some point in their career or lives, that they would love for other people to know about what that might be.
Emily Franlkin 40:45
I'm about halfway through Never Split the Difference right now. And that's been a phenomenal book. I've really enjoyed that one's about a FBI agent and the tactics that he used in negotiating. And there's life and death situations. And I definitely would recommend that in any any real estate practice.
Nancy Surak 41:04
Yeah, I actually read that last year. And that's a great, great read great book. But I actually listened to it on audiobook. So he audios are, he does the the audio version. And he's got a great voice too. So it's like really easy to listen to. But it is really good book. I think I walked away with a few tactics in my tool belt, which is always awesome. How about you Natalia? Do you have a favorite book,
Natalia Goldenberg 41:29
I really enjoy Ryan Holiday. He has a book called The Obstacles Is the Way. And it's just a great book to read. If you're going through a tough time, it gives you some great insight on how to get through trials and tribulations. And how you can use that in everyday life and shift your mentality, I highly recommend it. It's a really great book.
Nancy Surak 41:48
Awesome, I'll have to make sure that I check that out. And then I know you guys have sprinkled so much great advice throughout the whole show. But I always love to ask if somebody young, young, younger, called you and said, I think I want to be a developer. What's one piece of advice you would give them to get them going?
Natalia Goldenberg 42:10
We talked a little bit about in the beginning, but it's really just having the grit to problem solve this, this job is really about problem solving. There's gonna be problems all along the way. And how creative can you be to get through it. And somebody's always going to tell you why whether it's the GC saying Nope, can't do that, we don't have that product or this is going to be late, you know, we don't have time for that our schedule is gonna be behind three months, or the architect says, Well, if you want to put that there, then you can't have a window here. And so you have to have the grit and persevere perseverance. And actually, I'll have to add be able to work in an ambiguous environment, because nothing is clear here. So grit and being okay with ambiguity,
Emily Franlkin 43:00
I would say just learning to be be patient development takes a very long time to learn. And it's something that I have to tell myself all the time, you know, it's something that you won't realize the gains from for a little while, and you have to be okay with that. And when you when you kind of hit your stride, it's this euphoric moment, you know, it's not all at once, but it's you hit this time, a few years, and that is worth the weight. And so I would say, take your time, really make sure that you aren't rushing and are learning everything as it comes at you. And not rushing through any of it. So that would be my advice.
Nancy Surak 43:42
Those are great. Both of you very, very wonderful pieces of advice. And then finally, I always ask, is there a place? You guys are much younger than me so that I keep harping on it? But is there a place? where folks can follow you? Are you active on social media? Do you talk about your business on LinkedIn, or Instagram? Or does the company have a social media presence that you guys if folks wanted to follow you and your progress on your projects that they could do that?
Emily Franlkin 44:12
So DeBartolo as an institution, we're a little bit quieter, and more like reserved in our social media presence just from our history. But Natalia and I, we're both on LinkedIn, like pretty active on LinkedIn. So always feel free to follow us. We post about our projects periodically. So feel free to
Natalia Goldenberg 44:31
Yeah, reach out to us on LinkedIn, we'll be happy.
Nancy Surak 44:34
I will confess, I came into the interview and I was like, Oh, I have a headache. I'm gonna have to like fake my energy level. And I mean, like, y'all turn that around for me in about 20 seconds. So amazing. Always so much fun. I'm really, really happy that you joined me here today. And I'm really happy that you guys were able to share your story of your career and your success. And I wish you guys all the best on the rest of your projects.
Emily Franlkin 44:56
It's been so special getting to know you, Nancy, thank you for having us.
Natalia Goldenberg 44:59
Yes. Thank you.
Nancy Surak 45:00
You bet. See you guys soon.
Emily Franlkin 45:02
Bye.
Nancy Surak 45:04
Thank you for joining me today on another episode of she's while the podcast for women in land and development. If you enjoyed today's episode, please go out and rate us right now so that other folks just like you can find us. And if you know a total Rockstar woman who's working in land and development or commercial real estate, who is either just getting started or is more seasoned. Please tell her about the show. And finally, if you know someone who you think would make an excellent guest, I am always looking for inspiring women to interview and I would love your recommendations. please connect with me on any of my social media accounts by searching Nancy Surak.