President of Sage Partners, Debra Koehler, discusses her company's mission to provide affordable housing and her 35-year career in real estate development. She has developed over 2.5 million square feet of office and hotel space and nearly 10,000 affordable multifamily units throughout Florida. She has also raised over $1.25 billion through various financing methods. Listen in to learn how she did it.
Welcome back to She's WILD, today's guest is Debra Koehler, President of Sage Partners, a real estate development company based in Tampa, Florida.
In this episode, Debra and I discuss her company's mission to offer innovative approaches to affordable housing and her 35-year career in real estate development. Debra has successfully developed over 2.5 million square feet of office and hotel space and nearly 10,000 affordable and workforce multifamily units in over 35 communities throughout Florida. She has also raised over $1.25 billion through the sale of affordable housing tax credits, tax-exempt municipal bonds, and conventional project financing.
Debra is an icon in the development industry in Florida and when you listen to this show you'll quickly see why.
Connect with Nancy:
Instagram:https://instagram.com/nancysurak
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancysurak/
Website: www.nancysurak.com
Connect with Debra:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debra-koehler-8a560311/
Metro 510: https://metro510.com/
Vista 400: http://vista400fl.com/
She’s Wild Sound Production by: Luke Surak, Surak Productions: surakproductions@gmail.com
Nancy Surak00:00
Hello and welcome back to She's Wild podcast for women in land and development. Today's guest is Debra Koehler, the President of Sage Partners, a multifamily residential real estate development company, based here in Tampa, Florida, that she founded with Todd Turner in 2007. Sage's primary mission is to offer innovative approaches to the development and preservation of affordable housing. Capitalizing on the broad experience of its principles in this arena. Sage has re habilitated 585 senior affordable housing units in the Tampa Bay region and developed 120 workforce housing units in downtown Tampa. Debra is a 35 year veteran of real estate development. She was a partner and Senior Vice President at the Wilson Company, a full service real estate development company that was based in Tampa, Florida, where during her 17 year tenure, she was responsible for successfully developing over two and a half million square feet of office and hotel space and over 9400 affordable multifamily units in 34 communities throughout the state of Florida. She has been involved in over 100 real estate financing transaction in conjunction with her development activities. She was responsible for also raising over $500 million through the sale of affordable housing tax credits. An additional $450 million through the sale of tax exempt municipal bonds, and over 300 million conventional project financing. I am so excited to have you here today Debra welcome to She's Wild. Hi welcome back to She's Wild the podcast for women and land and development. Today's guest is Deborah Koehler, the President of Sage Partners, a multifamily residential real estate development company based right here in Tampa, Florida. Deborah, I'm really excited to have you on the show today, you are quite a visionary in your own right and a woman that I personally have looked up to in my career as somebody who has done it right in her career. And I'm happy to have you here and to have you share your story and tell us a little bit more about how you got to where you are today and all the stories along the way. So to get Jumping right in, I would love for you just to tell us a little bit more about kind of your background and how you got into real estate and what you're doing now as Sage Partners.
Debra Koehler02:32
Okay, I would love to share that because it kinda is buried on how I got from there to here. And I'll just start with I grew up in a very, very rural small town in rural Virginia and wanted to be a veterinarian all my life, you know, when I was a child and worked at a veterinarian, and so I said, Well, there's only one veterinary school in Virginia, and that's Virginia Tech. And that's where I went. And after a year of realizing, where are all the cats and dogs in this program? And they go, Oh, no, no, you're large animal. I mean, I wasn't a farm her. So I literally said, I'm good at math, I'm going to change to accounting. And that is the only thought I had in that changed my career. But I will tell you, I was very fortunate because I got an accounting degree, became a CPA and absolutely loved it. And I really feel like that base is really helped me even in the business we have today. So I feel very fortunate that I became an accounting major. And I always tell people, you should become an accounting major, because it really gives you a lot of options. So, so majored in accounting, worked at KPMG, in Tampa, and audit and then in 1986, I got a call to join the Wilson Company. And I did not want to leave public accounting. I wanted to be the first female partner in Tampa and all those things that we had those aspirations. But I met Jack Wilson, and the rest is history. I joined the Wilson Company and was there for 17 years and great mentor. And for those of you who have never had the opportunity to meet Jack when he was here with us. He was a great individual and a great mentor for me.
Nancy Surak04:21
So when you were so tell me a little bit more about what you did at the Wilson Company, I read your bio, our portion of it. It's pretty remarkable. But you tell me your version of that.
Debra Koehler04:34
Well, I think the interesting thing is actually I guess I said 85 I joined an 87 because 86 Tax Act that's how I remember now that had just passed and really didn't honestly have a clue of what that was about to do the real estate industry. I learned really, really fast because that became the RTC days. And so when I joined I joined as an accountant or center, their accounting department and realize real quickly that it's a small company and you were literally whatever that day they needed done. I did it. So I jumped in to really the finance and reworking several of the loans that we had at the time. And then I got involved. They had just opened the Hyatt next door, the Grand Hyatt and they said, We need an owner's rep, like, Okay, I don't know what that means. But yeah, okay, I'll do that. And that was kind of the environment. I mean, it was a great environment to learn real estate. And so I was very fortunate that I learned hospitality, we have, you know, a lot of commercial office space, we were just developing carillon, which was 400 acres, as Jack Wilson said, in the middle of Tampa Bay. And it really was in the middle of Tampa. So I learned all kinds of from workouts to financing commercial office space, to the hospitality. And what that was interesting on the Grand Hyatt is Hyatt was our management company. And we went into the recession. And we need to rework their management agreement, which which we did. And they said, we'll take a reduction in our management fee is you got to give us a first right of opportunity to buy if you ever sell. And that's how Hyatt owns the Hyatt.
Nancy Surak06:22
So at what point in working through all those things at the Wilson Company? Did you really start to focus on the affordable component? Because you did a ton of a more affordable multifamily units?
Debra Koehler06:36
Well, yes, we progressed. And then that was another another recession. And I that's why I always, anybody asked me, you know, where do you learn the most in real estate. And I always say from the hard times, because that is where you have all these experiences that you use later in life, but didn't realize that you're gonna use them that way. And so we were in another recession, we had just finished Chase, to build a suit for Chase Manhattan Bank, we've finished anchor glass Fountain Square. And just literally the spigot turned off. And we were like, what, what now because we had a pretty large commercial operating company. And so I just want to check Wilson's friends, and you need to go check out affordable housing. So we drove to Orlando. And I will, I'll tell you to this day, I had the same impression. Everybody else says when they sit here affordable housing, I thought objects section eight, we drove over there, we saw some of the most beautiful apartments that look just like market, right? And realize this, what our mind thought, and what we saw were very different. And so I always tell people now that affordable housing is really market rate housing with an affordable rental. And that structure is based on the financing. And that's why we do it. But that was in 1993. And so we're I was very fortunate because I really love that part of my career was learning affordable housing. And it is basically a program that is monitored by the IRS. So the accounting side worked out really well because it really is much of accounting and finance. And we did 10,000 units from 1993 to 2003. So we were very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I say and and Jack, this let me run with it. So I did.
Nancy Surak08:26
That's awesome. So in 2007 is when you establish Sage Partners.
Debra Koehler08:32
Yes.
Nancy Surak08:32
And you decided that's where your heart was, was born in the affordable space and in rehab rehabbing properties, correct?
Debra Koehler08:39
Yes, absolutely. I, you know, when we were at Wilson Company, obviously, I was very fortunate to do all the affordable housing ground up. And then I had an interim period between 2003 2007 Where I was actually buying, I'm gonna say B properties and Pinellas County with great location and very high barriers to entry and did condo conversions. I learned all about rehab. So when sage came around, the first deal we did was a high rise rehab, which kind of brought all those things in to play, including the commercial, you know, high rises that we had at Wilson Company. So in 2008, put on the first deal under contract that we'll get to resume got experience. And I just didn't foresee what was about to happen and Lehman crash in the Great Recession. So had to hang on to our first deal till 2009. And we did we were the only tax credit bond deal to close and State Florida and oh nine and that got us started. Yeah, we were. I mean, I will tell you at that point and mortgaged everything I was down to one last straw, my equity line. So they didn't know.
Nancy Surak09:53
So remind me what was the how many years was that? Three or four?
Debra Koehler09:57
Yeah, so 2007 is my formed Sage. Oh, wait was our first and so oh nine. So basically, okay, that things afloat till the middle of 2009 it was it was challenging, but I guess at the same time, you know, when you're in it, you just think, Okay, well, it's gonna happen, I just don't know which day hopefully, and just had a really, I think a positive attitude about it's going to make it and I guess wheeling it to the end line but we really were very fortunate and Bank of America and PNC stepped up and said, we're going to do this deal.
Nancy Surak10:32
So I can remember those days, because I got started in the land business on the brokerage side, I was in and around commercial real estate before that. But I decided to say like, oh, I'm gonna give up my salary job, because I'm going to come and be a land broker in 2005, when the market was like screaming hot, at least down here. And it was like, you could do no wrong. And in, and I had some really early, like, great deals, right? And so I got paid pretty quick, which was great and rough, especially in retrospect, but then like, when it turned, it turned. And I remember, gosh, I remember just when, like you said, when Lehman Brothers went out, and what was that 2008 They was, like, so painful. It was so painful. I had like, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of land under contract, and it just every day, every week, I would go in or every day, and another deal would die. Oh, boy, oh my God, it was bad. So I can't even imagine what it would be like as a developer in that space, knowing that the world is just sort of like crumbling around the whole market.
Debra Koehler11:41
As I said, I learned a lot. And I learned, you know, just perseverance. I think I just remember calling and calling and you know, hoping one day they go, Okay, we're ready. But they didn't need tax credits. I mean, our deals or financial tax credits, and things weren't making money. So they're like, Well, we, you know, like that deal. But we really don't have any need for tax credits. So finally, you know, the world started, sun was coming back out the middle two, nine. And, and we were very fortunate to get that first. First one done. And now it's almost 15 years later,
Nancy Surak12:15
Isn't that crazy? So when you think back? You said you almost mortgaged everything, when you think back to that part of your career in your personal life? Because those are so intertwined, right, when it's your, when you're signing on that personal guarantee line, right? What was the biggest lesson that you think you learned during that time?
Debra Koehler12:38
I would say, well, one, I mean, a lot of developers risk a lot, you know, to, and you know, and a lot of developers either come out the other side, or maybe they don't, and I look back, and I probably didn't realize how much risk I was taking, you know, I just kept on thinking, Okay, this is going to happen. And you know, and I kind of knew the finances, but at the same time, I really didn't know like how this was going to end. So I I probably now, you know, now I'm 62, I'm probably more conservative than ever, I always tell everybody, if you lend us money, I'm going to tell you, the pro formas are the most conservative numbers you've ever seen. So in that, I remember trying to convince the banks like this, this still should work. And this is a performance, I've scrubbed it about it for you know, 18 months under contract. And I still remember them questioning and everything. I mean, whatever they wanted, I mean, they wanted longer personal guarantees, they wanted more operating reserves. You name it. I mean, our textbook price went down in it, honestly. I mean, I had zero negotiating power, none. And I just I was like, Okay, I just know I had to get get the deal done. And now I look back. And the fact is that that was important to realize where we are in the in this industry, and we had zero negotiating power. But we were gonna get to go, if we did this, this and this and which we did. And then my goal was to show them that the numbers they underwrote us at versus what we really performed were much more on our side than theirs. But that was more of I told you so. But I would just say that I learned that it is just you just never give up. And you just keep coming in every day and saying it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. And, and I, you know, I feel like it was reputation is why we got the deal. And now we're showing them you know, almost 15 years later, that was a good deal to do.
Nancy Surak14:34
Well, then you had a great career prior to it being your own thing, too, right. So you've had like a whole track record, to be able to say like, I know what I'm doing. I'm experienced, which we don't always see in the development space, especially when things get really hot. Last couple of years in particular, but I think I'm sure that that helped you to a degree. But you know, I hear a lot from a lot of women who are in the development space or want to be there? Like, hey, funding and financing is so hard to come by? We can't get it. What was that like? For you? Like? Did you have any issues at all being a woman? Or was it really you had some experience that they treated you completely fairly?
Debra Koehler15:18
I would say, I mean, my track record is definitely wide got in the door. And, you know, I've always felt like being a woman and this as long as you're performing, I always go at 110% of any competition, whether it's man or woman, that, you know, you should hopefully, continue to thrive and come out on top, you know, you got all your environmental circumstances like this great recession. But I wouldn't say that I was very lucky because I had the relationships, and they knew my track record. And that is probably the only reason that deal got done was the track record. In Florida, in Tampa, especially in in Florida. I mean, nobody was lending money. But I think the other part was that they knew how conservative I was. And then, you know, our performers again, every year, I'm always saying, Oh, I'm gonna beat that. And and this year, this year, I don't know if I'm going to
Nancy Surak16:12
Yeah,
Debra Koehler16:13
There's a lot of things out of control this year.
Nancy Surak16:15
Yeah, it's crazy. These days. And now it's and I've been, I think this is my third cycle. And it's just very interesting. You know, because because the younger folks will say, and I'm sure you have this encounter, too. What was it like when, right? And I'm like, Well, this is totally different, it's different. It's not even close to being the same. Like, I don't know, your guess is as good as mine.
Debra Koehler16:39
As I usually give them advice, Okay, you know, get out the ramen noodles. And I mean, you're ready, and I hope you, you know, saved a lot of money and keep your powder dry. And this time, I mean, that, you know, we're in it now. And we get we have a lot of dry power. And we're like, Okay, now what, but I will tell you going through each one. And what you learn is, you know, long, I mean, part of it is being at the right place at the right time. And part of it is, you know, being conservative and really making sure so yes, now it's like this is when we thrive, we thrive actually in these downturns.
Nancy Surak17:16
It's interesting, you say that, because after COVID, sort of the veil lifted, like the second quarter of 2020 hair down in Florida, because we really got back up to speed pretty quickly compared to the rest of the nation. For me, I could see like how crazy was about to get like I could feel it. Like my phone was ringing off the hook. I had people in and out of my office, and they were telling me stories and like July of 2020 Oh, yeah, we're coming to Florida, because you guys are open. And I met with people who literally brought their kids to the meeting, and sat them like in another spot in my office. Because they were coming in from another state. And they're like, Yeah, we're coming down here. We're looking for houses, because I can't homeschool my kids in August. So we're getting them enrolled. We're all down here. And there was a lot of that. And I was like, oh my god, it's about to get crazy. And it did. But at the same time, I was freaking out because I was like this, we can't sustain this. This is not sustainable. There's something's gonna happen. And I kept preparing, you know, like my owners, hey, the music's gonna stop. And nobody knows when that's gonna happen. And the Fed hadn't really adjusted yet, right? And then there were rumblings of, I guess, like, maybe second or third quarter of 21 Hey, these things are gonna change. And I'm like, I knew like, I was like this. It's coming out. Like I was telling landowners, I was like, listen, discount your property, get it to the closing table, get the money in your pocket. Otherwise, like, these deals are gonna fall apart. It just not we can't be on this pace for much longer before there's like a major correction. So scary, but no, you're right. You know, same time, I'm like, this is the part of the market that I love the most, because I'm like, you get all that noise away. Right? All the folks who have swooped into the market to try to take advantage of whatever desire to be here. When they go away, the real players are left. And you can really get deals done. And this is when I like it the most. It's stressful. But it's a different kinds of it's a different kind of stress.
Debra Koehler19:23
Yeah, and I think you are successful, especially in this type of market because it is that creativity. It's like okay, yeah, I mean, this is not gonna be this is not easy like it was two years ago when they're all flocking because now everyone's looking at their pro formas and you know, what they were doing their cap rates and their returns and outbid and I don't even know if they issued another increase today but they're supposed to right but you know when when we're looking at because our portfolio we were getting unsolicited every day these bids and offers and I was like no, no, we are long term owners and now it's oh, you missed the market. Well, no, we didn't miss mark as we weren't looking to liquidate our portfolio. And so that's where you point out. Yeah, we are, I mean, long term holders, and we have the ability to, you know, recycle these and, and re syndicate them again and year 15, which is what we're going to do. So that's, that's what we're already looking at. Okay, you know, what we're trying to project the interest rate, which nobody can, obviously, but you know, we're okay, maybe we're peaking this year. And our first recertification, as you call it, is coming in 2025 to January 2025. So will we be hopefully, hopefully, meeting the interest rates as they're coming back down. But that's what that's where we are, we're looking already two years out. And right now, we are literally just, I'm gonna say we're hanging on. Because we like you, I really thought the world was going to end at COVID, because we didn't know how it was gonna happen. And I called every lender and every partner and just said, I don't know, but this is going to be bad, but I'm gonna let you know everything's going on. And then of course, nothing, it was nothing. I mean, we got 100%, collections and no delinquencies. And there was all these government programs. So no hint. Now, here we are, in in in the affordable space, I mean, the man, we just will never be able to satisfy the demand. So our goal is just continuing to rank collections. But we have, we cannot increase our rents unless they are made an income goes up. Right. And so that only comes out in April. So we'll find out where they are. But our rents are about 1/3 of market. So we have a big demand. But because we can't increase our rents our insurance bill, which we're having that meeting tomorrow, it's about to come out. And that is going to be really interesting, because that number, I've heard, you know, 40 to 60% increase, and that cannot be absorbed because we can increase our rents. So
Nancy Surak21:50
It's also interesting that you bring that up, because I've been talking with folks, I was talking to a debt and equity mortgage guy. He places money in different deals yesterday, and I was like, Hey, how are you guys bracing for like the insurance stuff? Because I'm hearing like, 40% for anything? And he's like, Yeah, we're kind of freak it out. He really didn't have a good answer for me, which I thought was very interesting. Like, oh,
Debra Koehler22:20
What are we going to do? Yeah, now I think everybody's just holding their breath. And then seeing okay. I mean, we already looked and said, well, it's going to be what it's going to be. And so we just manage. That's a fixed expense, real estate tax of fixed expense. So, and our variable expenses aren't that much. So we just know, it's, it's, you know, it's going to be a haircut to our noi. And we'll just get through it until 2025. Yeah, and I, I don't know what's going to happen, you know, next year, maybe, maybe I never see insurance rates go down. So that's the other thing and all of these cycles, you get the bump, but you never see it.
Nancy Surak23:01
Yeah, you know, I say that about other commodities to like lumber and steel and concrete. And because people will say like, Oh, my God, it's so much higher. And I'm like, Oh, come down, but it's not going to come down to where it was in rubber does. Never does it, it will go away high. And then it will come down. Like you know, 70% of that high point. But I'm like, You're still up 40%.
Debra Koehler23:24
From where we were a year ago. Exactly. Yeah. So that's what we're looking at.
Nancy Surak23:28
Yeah. So I always tilt my hat to developers and folks like you because I walk around and I'm like, if people ask me a lot, they're like, Why aren't you in development, you're married to a civil engineer? And I'm like, because it's risky enough for me to be a land broker. At any more risk than that. And because I did a lot of bank workout stuff and REO stuff in the earliest part of my brokerage career, and like, you know, 2009 and 10. And I was like, front and center, like, I saw it all. And I was like, holy cow. I'm not going to be a developer. It's so much risk. I can't handle it. I tip my hat to you, because I don't know how you do it.
Debra Koehler24:08
Well, thank you. No. And I mean, I am so lucky. Because what I do for a living, I really don't feel like it's work because of affordable housing for all the different real estate aspects I can be. And I'm so fortunate to be in something that I love. And I think I make an impact to a lot of people's lives. So I'm very fortunate to be a developer in this niche
Nancy Surak24:29
In that space. So tell me a little bit about you mentioned the project that you did. That was more a rehabilitation project. Believe you did a ground up as well. And down is the one in downtown Tampa. That was ground up, correct?
Debra Koehler24:44
Yes, that one was interesting, because we bought a historic, very historic black church that we restored and saved it because it was going to be probably maybe demo'd. And so that one I'm calling once in a career opportunity to buy that church restore it tell the story of you know, all the civil rights movements that happen there. And the famous people like Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks and Thurgood Marshall, I mean, so many. And I just felt oh my gosh, here's an opportunity to do one I love historic rehab, historic rehab, save an asset for the city of Tampa and tell the story for future generations. So I was like, Oh, my God, this is the best ever. And then we basically took the parking lot, which is a little bit less than an acre, and built 120 new affordable housing units with a two levels of debt parking. So mid rise downtown beside historic church, which is now the basically Community Center for the children and the residents of Metro 510.
Nancy Surak25:48
That's so cool. And everything has completely changed around that project. Since you did it. It's like remarkable, like you don't even recognize it anymore.
Debra Koehler25:55
Oh, yeah. No, we we were kind of in on the fringe. And when we did in 2010. And I still remember that. I don't know if you remember this, but why did we named Metro 510? Because the metro line was a strong mayor. I mean, that was going to be the stop, like the high speed rail. And I just remember, somebody said, Oh, well, that's not for sure. I go, No one is ever going to give that money back to the federal government. That is where it's going to be. And we're going to name my kin. And then I couldn't have been more wrong. Because the money went back to the federal government. I think it went to California. And no high speed rail. And yeah.
Nancy Surak26:34
It's interesting. My, one of my first jobs in Tampa, you'll have this two facts about me was with a geotechnical engineering firm, called Nodarse, I worked for a female engineer who had like five locations across the state. She, we started off with in an office in the middle of what's now Midtown on Arch Street, right? So whenever I talked to the guys at Bromley I'm like, oh, yeah, like my first job in Tampa was in the middle of your parking deck. You guys tore the building down. My second location with her she bought a building was on Tyler Street. Right down terrace. Right. And I remember telling her before I get into brokerage. We should buy everything around us because I could just feel the change. I was like, and that was in? Gosh, I had to be in late 2003. Right. Yes. You know, and I think I think back about like redoing that office and having our ground our grand opening and being really close to the bus stop. And just you know that neighborhoods so changed. And then I got into brokerage and I was like, man, I was onto something I should I really should have went back and bought like everything I could touch in that area, because it's so different now. It's crazy.
Debra Koehler27:50
Yeah. And it continues. It's it's very exciting, because I was just on a call like a downtown group. And I mean, the people are not just in Tampa. I mean, they're from New Jersey. I mean, people are coming all over buying land in downtown Tampa. And of course it's downtown. I think just yesterday, I saw this article like the top neighborhoods in the country, top 100. And downtown Tampa is in the top 100 neighborhoods in the country to live. I went oh my gosh, downtown Tampa because you know, you think okay, because Hyde Park was in there but downtown Tampa to hit that benchmark and recognition. And I go, you know, we have made something in downtown Tampa. And of course, it's not something it's all the other development. But we are the only I call it true affordable housing in the central core of downtown Tampa. And that's, to me, what was it was about was that we could give housing to people who worked downtown. And I think that's so important. And hopefully we're going to do more of that.
Nancy Surak28:48
Yeah, no that's awesome. So talk to me a little bit about when you're looking at an affordable deal. Talk to me about some of the complexity of putting that deal together with the state. I have lived just so you know. And folks who are joining us today, I have closed, I think eight tax credit deals, in my career. They all take way more time than what anybody anticipates. They're always the highest and best use, or at least my experience has been that. But they're challenging. So tell me from the developer's perspective, what that's like to go through the process.
Debra Koehler29:26
Well, especially when you're in the hot land market, it was very difficult because you are trying to convince a landowner to hang on because you don't want to. And this is me personally, I did not want to take land down until we were ready to close which means you went through that state process, you went through all the rezoning and everything. So that's why like I said, we thrive in the counter cyclical world because it's a lot easier when there's a lot of landowners and not that many buyers and that's where we thrive. But to give you an example of that that church the church was interested in because we had a state cycle. This was in 2000. Yeah, 2009 to the beat January 2010. And we told them, there's only one cycle year. And so we gotta close this and the application is due and they go, Oh, we can't sell this, you know, in that period of time were put under contract. And so as well, you know, it was like, I think nine o'clock at night applications do the next day in Tallahassee. And we get a call from the broker and he says, okay, they're ready to sell. And I remember because we were also putting together the other application for across the street, which was methods in place, Vista 400. And I said, Okay, I said, Well, where do you wants to make sure you said, I still remember this under the streetlight across from the church. On at the time, my business partner, my husband's Todd's truck, we signed that contract. And it was like, 1130 at night, and we stayed up all night. I had to go to city council next morning and ask for $200,000 at eight o'clock and I had not slept all night. We got they said yes to the CRA pod drug application to Tallahassee. And we were very fortunate, because we did get funded on that. But that's how it was. So I think, you know, your question deals together. I mean, it is, again, tenacity and all those things, but trying to convince, you know, especially as landowners that, you know, why, why go to contract with us versus a, b, and c. And we try to tell them that our track record, you know, I mean, I've been like it because close 39 Tax Credit deasl. So we're able to say that, you know, when we go in, but that's not even like today's even different. back now. Today, if you went in for city of Tampa or Hillsborough County, there's only one per county per year. And that's a real big lift to do that. So that's why people are looking at the alternative financing, like bonds and things like that. But but it's still it's it people are closing deals, and it's still out there.
Nancy Surak32:04
Yeah. So, you know, a, it is very hot topic. I think, globally speaking, especially in markets that have been slightly undervalued, like ours, the Tampa market, we've caught up to where we really should be, generally speaking, we might be a little bit out over our skis tips in terms of valuations. But we're now we know, we created this ourselves. We were like, Hey, look at us. Now we have everyone looking at us are all coming in. It's a real problem, affordable, attainable. workforce housing. I know that you've served on state boards and local boards. What do you think we're going to be able to solve this? I'm actually worried for like the next generation, because affordable, and even workforce is not what it used to be. I mean, these are these are multifamily units or residential units that for all intensive purposes, like I would have lived in at the same age, you know, maybe you weren't looked at, because we had good jobs. Yeah.
Debra Koehler33:08
And qualified. And that's what Yeah, and again, I see. So all this so affordable is 60% of AMI area median income and less and our airmen income for Tampa Bay, MSA is at $82,000. So just to give you like, benchmark so and then the workforce is I call it 60 to 120 or 140, AMI. And that's what they call the missing middle. And I am truly at every level from zero to 140 concern of how are we going to fill those those needs. And that's why you see the the basically you go to where you can qualify. And that's Pasco and it's, you know, South County and Manatee and, but we need to keep our workforce in in Hillsborough County and Tampa Bay. And that is why thank goodness. Now, they used to be a bad word affordable housing was a bad word. But now it's like on the top of everybody's political agenda. So I truly believe we're going to make strides. But are we ever going to I'm gonna say meet the need? I don't. I think it's just physically impossible. So we just kind of do our best though. I think that's the thing. I'm never gonna say, well, we should just stop because we're never gonna get there. We just every year and that's why like the state and what they're doing this year hopefully is gonna get passed at the Senate Bill 102. That is we will if that passes, Florida will have the landmark legislation that every other state will want. And we will get more units and it is it's all production. And it's keeping every unit that we put out there that's my soapbox is keeping it affordable for as long as possible. And it's not 10 years 15 years of a heartbreaker Vedas perpetuity. And I think you just do have to do that because you'll lose the units as much as you're putting on you're losing. Right so you want to keep you know when you especially the cities and counties when they give subsidy, they need to say it needs to be affordable for a long time. But I don't think we're ever going to ever make it balanced. But I think we're going to make a dent in it.
Nancy Surak35:11
Right? Well, I hope so. And I'll tell you, I think the closer you are into the urban core, whether that's like downtown Tampa, or Tampa, specifically or even St. Pete, I feel like the approach to affordable workforce attainable housing is very different than it is when you get out in further out counties that may be more secondary or tertiary. There's affordable housing or workforce housing is still in a lot of those people's minds a dirty word. And it really frustrates me as the land broker because a lot of times I'm working on what I would consider a market rate deal. There is no there's no credits, there's no subsidies, it is a market rate deal. And because it's multifamily, the residents are the nearby neighbors who are say, we don't want affordable housing, and I'm like, That's not affordable housing, that rent's gonna be, you know, $1,500, a two bedroom apartment that's not affordable. Right?
Debra Koehler36:05
The people that are saying we don't want it, they could qualify to move in there. And always, you know, your children, we always try to many times we would bring to city council, someone who lived there, you know, to put a girl's face, you know, maybe a teacher, or it'd be, you know, a nurse or somebody they say, This is who you don't want in your neighborhood. These are the people that take care of you that teach your children. And then oh, yeah, but that's I mean, it is is unfortunately, yeah, like multifamily period is in a lot of neighborhoods about word and it is. It's unfortunate. It's because everybody's like, Oh, no, we're gonna close the gates, you know, we moved here and no more people who move here,
Nancy Surak36:47
Right? I'm like, No, we live in a great place, right? We live somewhere that is desirable. And secret is out. We, we tuned it our horn, everybody knows it. Now. The projects that get built both in Tampa and St. Pete have gotten international recognition. It's no longer a secret. So the money will continue to pour people want to be here. But we do have to make sure that we're taking care of the needs of the folks who a live here, and that will continue to move here. So I appreciate your passion and your soy box. And I'm always there to like help and say like, How can I help. So I'm gonna make this offer to you before I forget. If you ever need somebody at a public hearing, to speak in favor, let me know, I'll be happy to come out in my two words where our passions lie. Because it's frustrating for me to see projects get a bad rap when really they are incredibly needed. And I'm hopeful that you said, you know, I think we're going to make a dent. I, you know, we have a long way to go. And I feel like we have to create some, either new incentives or new programs or there needs to be some additional new energy focusing on making sure that we provide housing for all.
Debra Koehler38:02
Absolutely, yeah. And I do see, I mean, the county started setting aside some money in their general fund and in the city of Tampa. And I feel like you've got to continue that. And I'll just say one more thing on zoning and planning that, you know, I'm all about not maximum densities, but minimum densities, because we only have so much land, as you know, from land brokerage, and that we need to maximize when we are building. And that is going to be critical. Another way to solve this is to when we can build that we build at the maximum not the minimum to minimum densities, not maximum densities.
Nancy Surak38:40
Yeah, I actually had breakfast with someone this morning. And they were talking about an area in our market, and the number of units coming from multifamily perspective. And this is somebody in our world, right? It was like, oh my god, it's too many units. traffic's gonna be too bad. And I was like, if you're going to put that density anywhere at that's like the best place to put it, it's the best place to put it. And I'm like, somebody's relatively young under 30. And I was like, actually, you know, like, you want the density to be where the infrastructure is, and where it can sustain it, and where there's bus routes, and where there's transportation opportunities to go not only downtown, but to the airport and over St. Pete, like, you want it there. Why are you telling me exactly that this is a bad thing. And it turned out that they grew up in a nearby neighborhood. And so they're getting caught up in the whole, like, we don't want that. And I'm like you're in business.
Debra Koehler39:32
Exactly. Educating and then finally, when they see it, and I go, Oh, okay, that makes sense. Because it is it's all transportation and proximity, you know, to jobs, and hopefully they won't even they can walk to work and they won't even need to get in their car, right is a goal. So but I'm with you, it's trying to just look at what we have and maximize our opportunities to build at every level.
Nancy Surak40:00
Yeah. Okay, so I'm glad that we agree on that. Okay, so I love to ask a couple fun questions sometimes. When you look back, because you've done so much over the course of your career, what's your favorite deal they ever worked on?
Debra Koehler40:15
Oh, my primary told you that but, but I'll tell you a little more so obviously, as Metro 510 to the historic church, and again, I think well, I'll just tell you one story. So we're doing the grand opening. And it is the, you know, this is the church where we took the sanctuary and made it now like the community center, and we got all these speakers and you know, it's Mayor Buckhorn, and everybody and I had asked Senator Joiner to come because she was representing our district. But she had not responded. So I'm up there introducing people and all of a sudden she walks in, awesome. Oh, my gosh, Joiner is here. So but this gives me chills just telling you, so she got up there. And she spoke about the day that she met there at that church, for this is like 1965, and walked over to the Woolworth counter to be served. That is where they met. That is, again, part of the whole Civil Rights Movement was right there in that church, and there was somebody standing there who did it. And you think about the courage it took, and you know, the impact. And so I guess, because that you know, is multifamily, and it's affordable and all that. But then to basically dovetail that was something so historic, I just feel is definitely probably my proudest moment.
Nancy Surak41:37
That's an awesome story. I did not know that. So thank you for sharing that. And I know it might be the same answer. Same, same project, because you mentioned signing the contract in your and your partner's truck late at night. But you might have a different answer. So I'm going to ask this question. What is the strangest thing you have ever encountered on any of your deals?
Debra Koehler41:59
Most strangest, okay, most unusual, isn't? Well, it was not bad deal. I would say unusual. Oh, is probably like one of my biggest battles of trying to get an affordable housing approved. It was in Oldsmar. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but it was obviously very contentious. We had a people ran on their election campaign to kill our deal. And they had a midterm election, like special election. So we knew, and I just remember, this was, let me think about this year 2001. And I said, You know what, this is it. I'm gonna I'm gonna go down in flames. But we are not given up. And I was very fortunate that I had a friend in Tallahassee, and I called her and I said, this is what's going on. And this is not right. They are trying to stop us only because of who they said lives there. This is fair housing. She goes, I got to somebody, she was I'm giving you the most prominent Fair Housing attorney in the country. I said, Okay, she says, I'm going to make the introduction, he just won the Deniz case, he won all these landmark cases, a work for the Department of Justice. And then when I was, I called him up, I said, this was going on, he goes, Oh, my goodness, he goes, I'll be down tomorrow, he flew down from DC. I gave him all the background, he goes, I feel so strongly about this, I am going to write the lawsuit for you. And you were to give a complimentary copy to all those city council members. And it basically says, If you violate fair housing, you are personally liable. And I said, Okay, I'm in and I did, I gave it all to the city council members. And they would likely luckily, you know, a couple days later, they had a special council meeting. In the middle of the previous meeting, a woman who was from the neighborhood was so mad that she was in a Ford Explorer and gunned it and tried to run me over as I was leaving the meeting. And that was like, wow, it's pretty close. But again, the great part about the story was that I was very fortunate to have this major civil rights attorney take on our deal. And that was the turning point. And so they proved it. And then they came to our ground breaker and they came to our grand opening and they said those are the best thing they'd ever seen. But in the middle of it, it was the biggest battle and probably the most interesting for me because it was all the wrong reasons they were trying to deny it. But you know, finally we had to fight might win might and and I bet future deals I use that. I said let me just explain what happened. So this is not a threat. This is just education.
Nancy Surak44:32
I love the fact that you you came out victorious, right and that you said this is a tool that I can use right? Awesome. Some people know this about me some of my listeners don't know me as well because they're not in a local market but I'm always about like ripping the band aid off you know, and just saying like, you can't you can't do this like I'm a huge property rights person. Like huge if I don't have any tattoos but if I ever got a tattoo would probably say like property rights or some say about bragging rights on it because I just believe it to my core. So I again, like that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm really glad that you were able to take it full circle. And I'm glad that you were able to get them at the end, even though they were so contentious, to be supportive, and to be able to look at a project like that and say, You know what, we were wrong. And maybe they didn't say that out loud. But to be able to show up publicly, is an admittance of it was coming at this from the wrong direction. So that's awesome. Awesome.
Debra Koehler45:29
Thank you. No, and they did. They actually told me they said, you know, this was something that we probably were not in the right on. And you know, they told me, I'm glad you gave us a good vote the way I think in their hearts. They were feeling it, but they had this crowd them officer. Yeah. But it was really, it was definitely my most unusual.
Nancy Surak
And I'm glad you shared it with me because I have another deal that is very contentious going for rezoning. Well, not even for rezoning. It's zoned has land use. And it's not affordable housing, it's multifamily, as a component of the overall project spec project. And neighbors are really fighting it. And what they're saying in public settings is just so it's just so off putting and so wrong. And I'm like, I wonder if any of those arguments are violating fair housing? I think they are. But I have to go back and like look at what they're saying in the public setting. Yeah, but he's using it for election purposes. It's like committee as citizens. Yes. But it's like educating those folks who are going to be voting on that project, like, Hey, be careful here. This is a very, you know, important area not to get yourself into trouble, Right. Yeah, no, because this was same thing. I mean, we were just basically getting trying to get site plan approval. I mean, you had all the, there was no approvals that it lacked other than site plan. So yes, I can probably find that complimentary copy for you.
Nancy Surak46:55
Let's go fight. Yeah, so I love all these stories. And I could talk to you forever. I'm such a huge fan. But I do have three final questions for you at the end of every podcast, so don't get stressed. I do say like the rapid questions, but they're not really rapid. Everyone takes her time answering them. Okay, so these are easy. You've touched on most of them, and not all. But I'm gonna ask him again. Okay, so if a young person, I usually say young woman, because the majority of our listeners are women, but not all have a lot of young men that listen to and older folks. But if somebody were to say, hey, I want to become a developer. But I'm not quite where it know where to start, or I don't know, like, how do I take the next step in my career? Is there a piece of advice that you could give me? What would you tell them?
Debra Koehler47:49
I would tell them to honestly do their homework and find, I'm going to call the developer or two or three developers that they would admire most. And again, that's not just what they built, but the person. Because I think I mean, that's why I contribute, you know, a lot of my career to Jack Wilson, because that was the person that I was very fortunate to associate myself with, but get in the door. And it doesn't matter at what level I mean, I took a pay cut in public accounting to go to Wilson Company, and that was the best risk I'd ever took. So I would say it's not about money, it's about the right company, and in the person or persons at the top. And you and I will tell any young person, they can call me, I'll help them get endorsed, because that's what I do. Mostly now that's I try to help young people, you know, in their careers, and I'll help anybody that's needed that help.
Nancy Surak48:42
Yeah, I said the same thing. If a young person calls me, I'm really quick to say, here's my not Rolodex, but who what is it that you think you want to do? Let me pair you with a few folks. If you're exploratory, and you don't really know, like, I'll give you a, you know, hodgepodge of folks talk to you. But if you really know like, I'm going to try to open up doors for you. Because even though I got into brokerage in mid career, I was 35. When I started as land broker. There were people who helped me before that, during that since then, that helped make me have the career that I have, and I have an obligation to pay that forward to other folks.
Debra Koehler49:18
Absolutely. And I know you do, you're always there and volunteering. And I mean, I don't know how you probably don't sleep. That's probably how you can do.
Nancy Surak49:26
You know, it's funny, because now my kids are out of the house. I don't know how I did it even like 10 years ago. I'm like, I don't want did I do all this stuff? Because now I'm tired. And I'm like, I did all this other stuff. But I am getting to a point where I'm like, I'm much more selective. You know, that was somebody recently and they were like, expressing to me how hard it is for them to tell people No, and they're like, I'm exhausted and I'm burnt out and you know, I have this and I have that and I have that and I'll and I took the person's hand and I said you have to focus on oral Why, but ROI you and only you can define that. But it can't be everyone else's ROI has to be your own. And if that's volunteering, because you get some personal satisfaction out of helping somebody who you want to help, that's that's a form of ROI, you know, have returned. But you can't be everywhere because you will kill yourself. That's why you're burned out. You're saying yes to much. And you have to start saying no. And that's a hard muscle to work in to continuously work because people don't like hearing the word no. And as women in particular, we don't like saying the word though. So
Debra Koehler50:37
This this My biggest issue. Right now, I'm forcing myself.
Nancy Surak50:42
You're getting better, you're getting better you told me no this morning.
Debra Koehler50:46
Only because I'm going to be grandma. So that's why that's why but I realized, I hardly ever say no, but that is one thing. I think as women, you know, we are we want to be everything to everybody. And, you know, most of the time we try and hopefully succeed. But now, I realized, and this is not even a question you asked me, but I'm just gonna do it. But I realize now you know where I am in life. And when the twins come in, I'm like, I'm there. And I it's, it's hard to say no, but I'm using that as my kind of salary.
Nancy Surak51:21
Debra, you have earned the right to say no. to folks like me, when I'm like, Hey, will you be at the speaking panel, and you're like, I am honored. You've asked, but I want to spend my time doing something else. You've earned that. More than earned that.
Debra Koehler51:34
Thank you. I really am trying.
Nancy Surak51:37
Yes. And I love it. Okay, so next quick question is, is there a book or a podcast or an influencer or anyone that you follow that you think is worthy of other people reading or checking out?
Debra Koehler51:54
Well, then I'm going to admit to you just like, I my time, I should be more, I think, open to doing podcasts actually, my son Jack, who, you know, he isn't like giving me podcast. And it's interesting, the ones he's giving right now have nothing to do with careers or real estate. It's about, like organic farming on it. We have a farm in Alabama. And so I'm all about I know this has nothing to do with real estate. But that is what I where I am right now is I am learning I'm we have bees and honey and I see them die. And so I'm totally against any we never use pesticides, but really how we can take the land back to natural grasses and things like that. So these are the podcasts I'm listening to.
Nancy Surak52:44
So is there one that you think we should check out that you love that you can think off the top of your head?
Debra Koehler52:50
I was gonna say I see. He just hands me he literally he knows me, just send me the link. And I deliberately list I'm not even like who is this person because Jack's already vetted them. So I like to I probably there's one individual, his name is Dr. Woods. He's out in Missouri, and he is like this expert in basically taking your land back without any, you know, again, fertilizer, no fertilizer, no pesah nothing. And so actually, we may even have him come to our farm to consult us because that's how committed we are to executing this. So I think as I now step back, I'm big into, obviously want to make an impact on foreign policy, but you know, what can I do to make an impact on the environment and learning and sharing that so, so yeah, well,
Nancy Surak53:37
I'm gonna find his podcasts and we'll make sure that there's a link to it. And we'll also tell you a little fun fact. Last year in 2022, was the first time I sold a piece of land for a Bee Apiary. Up in Hernando County 40 acres. I will reach out to that guy and say, Hey, I have somebody I want to introduce you to that is working with some bees and honey up in Alabama. I think you guys might have some things in common because he might have some resources for you too. It was amazing. It was like a farming loan. But the deal together it was super stressful because I don't think Scott had a lot of money. But he had been doing like the honey and bee hive I guess preservation and growth. I don't even know like all the right terms on like two acres in he was so busy. He said he was telling me he takes these beehives, these big beehives, and he ships them all over the united states and communities that because have been such heavy use of pesticides that there's no bee population and so they have to like bring the back.
Debra Koehler54:47
Yes. Yes.
Nancy Surak54:49
I didn't even know that was a thing.
Debra Koehler54:51
Oh yeah, these beehives go all over because they need them to pollinate. I mean everything from your citrus bows to all your different fruit bearing Trees and because you're right, I mean, that is an it is a business now. Yeah,
Nancy Surak55:04
It's interesting because he said, I got started doing the honey. But the business and what pays me money is the hive portion of his business. And I was like, I've never heard of this. Yeah, that's really cool. Really cool deal. He's fun to kind of learn and I need to follow up with him, because it's been a long enough that he's probably got a pretty good, you know, he's probably working on an establishment at this price. I think it closed. Oh, gosh, I think first quarter of last year, so I'll have to like find out find out how he's doing.
Debra Koehler55:37
And I'd love to talk to him. Because it's another facet that I'm learning.
Nancy Surak55:44
It sounded like he sort of just kind of stumbled into it a little bit. But he was like, oh, yeah, no, I'm doing this like farming loan. And I was like, All right, let's go. And he a lot of help like people around him that kind of like rallied around him on the deal. He was the buyer. I rep'd the seller. But it was interesting for me, anyway. Okay. Finally, last question. Okay, are you active? And I think I know this answer. But Are you active anywhere online or social media or like LinkedIn or anything that if people wanted to keep up with you, or your projects that they could check out?
Debra Koehler56:18
Okay, this is interesting answer. So I have LinkedIn. And I'm, I mean, I, I pretty much anybody wants to link me in, I will accept you. I probably that's probably maybe not a judicious way of doing that. But I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, I'm very closed on that one, only because the ones I post are really about like family and my dad who's 88. That is his way of kind of like getting embraced with what the family's doing. So I do that. It's interesting sage partners, because I've been so like, you know, we kind of have a reputation. So you if you want to see sage partners, you will go to Metro 510 or Vista 400. But sage partners doesn't even have a website, which people don't like and find on the website go, No, but you can go to any of our communities. So I would say probably the best way would be LinkedIn.
Nancy Surak57:15
Okay, perfect. Perfect. Fair enough. I want to thank you for joining me here today. I really very pleased and really happy that you said yes, to share your story, your career journey. And I am always so excited when I see you in public places and at different real estate meetings in Tampa, you've made a huge contribution to our industry and to our region. And I just want to thank you for that. So thanks for being here. And thank you for all you do.
Debra Koehler57:44
Well, thank you for having me and I can't wait to listen.
Nancy Surak57:47
Alright, awesome. We'll see you soon. Okay, take care. Bye. Thank you for joining us for another episode of She's Wild the podcast for women in land and development. If you enjoyed today's show, please go out and rate us so that we can be found by other women in our industry. And if you know women who are working in land and development, please share this podcast with them. And if you know a total rock star woman, badass chick who is killing it in land and development anywhere in North America. I want to know who she is. Please reach out to me so that I can feature her on an upcoming episode.